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Post by vjsinger on Mar 16, 2010 19:38:02 GMT -5
After looking at video of my swing I have noticed that I lack a dynamic, powerful pivot. I don't have a sit down move like all the very powerful swingers of the club. Nicklaus, Tiger, Hogan, Garcia, Sadlowski..pretty much anyone that really hits it with authority has this move. Can ANYONE please help me understand how to train this move and some drills to help accomplish this desirable swing trait? I also wonder if someone could tell me if this is a swinger, hitter, or switter action? and how do you know which one it is? Thanks in advance.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Mar 16, 2010 20:21:04 GMT -5
I hate to say it, but Module 2 does a pretty darn good job of training the sit down and making the pivot more dynamic. This picture here is more important to look at IMO, than the face on view of a 'sit down.' The knees have more bend in the downswing than they do at address for these great players. They are lowering their COG's and using the ground to push off of and power their pivot. Much like a hockey player using the ice to power a slap shot. 3JACK 3JACK
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Post by jonnygrouville on Mar 16, 2010 21:32:49 GMT -5
Amateurs generally don't 'use the ground' enough. Most hit kind of from the waist up.
But it is not just as easy as bending your legs and dropping your head in the downswing! To me, this look (probably not a move you should train) is a by-product of the correct sequencing into the ball, including achieving the correct axis tilt and right shoulder on plane.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 16, 2010 22:11:59 GMT -5
3jack You have shown a subset of golfers who have a lot of knee flex in the downswing. Do you think that it is advantageous to have a lot of knee flex in the early downswing (hip squaring phase of the downswing) and why? I can think of many superb ball-strikers who do not have any increased knee flex in the downswing eg. Michael Finney and Stuart Appleby and Chuck Quinton. Mike Finney homepage.mac.com/brianmanzella/.Movies/mikestlocdriver05front.movChuck Quinton www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyiFqz7Idk0Jeff.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Mar 16, 2010 23:11:54 GMT -5
Brian Gay is a good example as well.
I do think it's a good thing to have more knee flex in that part of the downswing. For me, it helps because it seems to get a better control of the low point. I personally hit a lot less thin shots.
No offense to those players mentioned, but the guys in that photo I posted are far better ballstrikers. Olazabal was the only guy a bit sporadic with his ballstriking of that bunch.
3JACK
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Post by TeddyIrons on Mar 17, 2010 1:46:13 GMT -5
I think if we were to throw a stone, we'd all naturally do the sit down during the transition. With a golf club it doesn't seem to come naturally to most of us. In the transition we are told to not hit from the top, to maintain our angles, etc. This is all difficult because something has to move. Well, let's move our lower body with the sit down. This can help actually deepen our angles, rather than having to hold on to them.
I do think this is very difficult to learn, and not at all easy to do just while hitting balls, but as vj said in the OP, the sit down seems to distinguish between good ballstrikers and amateurs.
I know you've given up on ABS vj, so perhaps I shouldn't mention this, but modules 2, 5 and 6 all work on this so that it naturally enters your swing DNA. Module 6 is actually the transition module. I'll be starting this module in a couple of days.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 17, 2010 9:15:31 GMT -5
3jack/Teddy
You both imply that better ball strikers use a "knee flex" action in their downswing, thereby suggesting that it is causally responsible for their better ball striking.
I disagree - because I know of no mechanical/biomechanical reason for that "belief". If you have a mechanical/biomechanical explanation to support your "belief", please provide the explanation.
Jeff.
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Post by TeddyIrons on Mar 17, 2010 9:28:59 GMT -5
Jeff, I'm no expert on this as I'm just learning how to do this. However, my understanding is that the sit-down or knee flex, if done at the right moment near the top of the backswing, will create a CP force in towards our body, which will deepen the angles we have between the arms and the club shaft. So the advantage is that we are adding to the lag we create in the backswing, rather than trying to hold onto what we already have.
The other thing I like about the sit down move is that personally I find it difficult to move my hips counter-clockwise at the transition to start the downswing. The sit-down, on the other hand, does this for me.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 17, 2010 9:53:01 GMT -5
Teddy,
You wrote-: "However, my understanding is that the sit-down or knee flex, if done at the right moment near the top of the backswing, will create a CP force in towards our body, which will deepen the angles we have between the arms and the club shaft."
I find your explanation to be incomprehensible. I have to understand golf biomechanics in terms of human physiological motions. I have no idea what's a "CP force" and I have no idea how that "CP force" will increase lag. I don't even know why a golfer would want to increase lag during the downswing if he has an adequate amount of lag at the end-backswing position.
Jeff.
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Post by TeddyIrons on Mar 17, 2010 10:08:34 GMT -5
Well I did say I wasn't an expert! ;D Maybe CP force is not the right term. If you watch many good ballstrikers, towards the end of their backswing and start of the downswing they appear to compress into themselves in such a way that they create more wrist cock as they start down. I think the sit-down aids this. I cannot offer a biomechanical reason for this. However, I can offer good reasons why it is good to create more wrist cock at the beginning of the downswing.
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Post by vjsinger on Mar 17, 2010 18:05:17 GMT -5
Thanks for the comments guys, even you Jeff:) Teddy: I'm still pretty POed about the ABS stuff and the price hike. So, I still absolutely will not continue on his program. I'm going to see Brian Manzella soon I hope and I'll ask him lots of questions about my swing and maybe see if he can give me some drills to improve this aspect of my swing. Can you guys give me any hints on what is presented in lags videos that help you learn this part of the swing?
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Post by slice_oftheday on Mar 17, 2010 18:51:43 GMT -5
Yeah, at $200 a module, I'm going to have to get a part-time job this summer (I'm a student right now) before I begin working on them.
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Post by jonnygrouville on Mar 17, 2010 20:02:16 GMT -5
I can't imagine anyone (or any of the people in the pictures) working or training on a 'sit down' move. I can imagine someone thinking about impact alignments (axis tilt, right wrist, etc.), and trying to work out a way to get there in the dynamic motion of the whole swing and still get at the bottom of the ball.
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Post by vjsinger on Mar 17, 2010 20:28:13 GMT -5
I can't imagine anyone (or any of the people in the pictures) working or training on a 'sit down' move. I can imagine someone thinking about impact alignments (axis tilt, right wrist, etc.), and trying to work out a way to get there in the dynamic motion of the whole swing and still get at the bottom of the ball. I am pretty new to golf and haven't gotten to where I want to yet(obviously). Instead of focusing on the in between stuff(sit-down), What would you suggest I do to help correct my problems? I have been described as an armsy player that lacks a dynamic pivot. I believe I do best with drills in learning movement patterns. Thanks.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Mar 17, 2010 21:24:29 GMT -5
One thing that Module 2 has greatly helped me with is controlling my low point better. Also, it feels sort of like I'm powering the downswing primarily with the feet and up.
But, Brian knows this stuff well enough. I'm confident in that. As far as 'hints' to Module 2, I would suggest looking at the at the foot action, particularly the right foot action and the right knee action of the following golfers:
- Peter Senior - Camilo Villegas - Teddy Rhodes - Greg Norman (pre-Harmon) - David Duval - Hogan - Moe Norman - Knudson
3JACK
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