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Post by cwdlaw223 on Aug 1, 2013 7:36:48 GMT -5
Tapio -
Why do you believe that degrees per second is an incorrect measurement for rate of closure?
What other form of measurement could be used? Not linear MPH.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Aug 1, 2013 7:42:29 GMT -5
The only minor correction I will make on Manzella's video (and it may not even be a correction) is that Phil is a great long iron player. There's no way for me to measure his shots on the half and 3/4 swings he tends to make. But, he's usually been excellent from the Danger Zone 175-225 yards. Now, he does hit his irons a very long way, partially due to playing with irons that have been as much as 1" longer than standard. But, I don't think he's hitting many 1/2 and 3/4 swings from that distance.
What's interesting is that this may be the reason why he is so great out of the rough. I remember watching him in the deep stuff a couple of times at Merion and he would take that 3/4 swing and stick it while others would be lucky to get it near the green.
3JACK
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Post by jeffy on Aug 1, 2013 9:43:44 GMT -5
I guess the other "minor" correction is that Phil's predominant miss is an open faced miss: he hits into the left rough 50% more often than the right rough. In fact, at 20%, only one player hits it into the left rough more often than Phil. Phil hits the right rough 13% of the time, and ranks in the top third. So, is Phil's problem OVER-ROTATION of the body? Or is it an unstable release?
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Aug 1, 2013 11:20:55 GMT -5
Jeffy -
What is "driving" in the "drive/hold" release with respect to the wrists? For example, is the right wrist driving with extension against the shaft immediately before, during and after impact? Kelvin's articles say nothing on this issue regarding the wrists. Maybe it's the forearms that are driving and have nothing to do with the wrists. However, now that's apples and oranges to a "flipper" style "release" where a flip is generally associated with the right hand passing the left immediately before or during impact and the classification for a flip is associated with the wrist not the forearms.
Or, is "drive/hold" just an intention and look regardless of what's happening from a biomechaincal standpoint? For example, the golfer intends to keep his right wrist in extension in the downswing, impact and slightly post impact but right wrist is really flexing.
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Post by jeffy on Aug 1, 2013 11:42:46 GMT -5
Jeffy - What is "driving" in the "drive/hold" release with respect to the wrists? For example, is the right wrist driving with extension against the shaft immediately before, during and after impact? Kelvin's articles say nothing on this issue regarding the wrists. Maybe it's the forearms that are driving and have nothing to do with the wrists. However, now that's apples and oranges to a "flipper" style "release" where a flip is generally associated with the right hand passing the left immediately before or during impact and the classification for a flip is associated with the wrist not the forearms. Or, is "drive/hold" just an intention and look regardless of what's happening from a biomechaincal standpoint? For example, the golfer intends to keep his right wrist in extension in the downswing, impact and slightly post impact but right wrist is really flexing. You can't read, then.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Aug 1, 2013 11:52:50 GMT -5
I'm not the only one! You've dodged this question in the past and Kelvin is dodging it on the Facebook forum. Should be very simple to answer.
You've seen enough AMM3D graphs to know there is nothing driving or holding in any release. That basically leaves you with a couple options: (a) avoid the wrists issue, or (b) claim the data generated by AMM3D is somehow wrong.
I'm not against all of Kelvin's classifications, but to call a release as drive/holding when wrists are doing nothing of the sort in ANY swing is misleading IMO. Sort of like using "rate of closure" when what is really being discussed is timing of the clubface which is golfer specific. My timing is different than your timing, but by using the term "rate of closure" there's an element of objectivity inserted into mix. Nominalists use words like this all the time.
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Post by gmbtempe on Aug 1, 2013 12:40:24 GMT -5
And with crappy camaera angles you can make any claim, Phil switched to SnT and thats why he won the British Open. Maybe you should check to see who posted that video on youtube. Why do I care who posted it, was making my point I think the angle is poor for ME to draw a conclusion.
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Post by jeffy on Aug 1, 2013 12:51:25 GMT -5
I'm not the only one! You've dodged this question in the past and Kelvin is dodging it on the Facebook forum. Should be very simple to answer. You've seen enough AMM3D graphs to know there is nothing driving or holding in any release. That basically leaves you with a couple options: (a) avoid the wrists issue, or (b) claim the data generated by AMM3D is somehow wrong. I'm not against all of Kelvin's classifications, but to call a release as drive/holding when wrists are doing nothing of the sort in ANY swing is misleading IMO. Sort of like using "rate of closure" when what is really being discussed is timing of the clubface which is golfer specific. My timing is different than your timing, but by using the term "rate of closure" there's an element of objectivity inserted into mix. Nominalists use words like this all the time. The wrists are discussed in each of Kelvin's April, May and June 2013 articles on the release, and the summary graphs from the May article were posted on Facebook. Of the 15 anatomical movements listed on the graphs, five involve the wrists. And you can't even read Tyler's trail wrist graphs, either. The "flipper" trail wrist is pronating about 4 to 5 times faster than the three DH releases and the underflip.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Aug 1, 2013 12:57:57 GMT -5
And you still just can't simply state what's driving or what's holding? Sad. I know why you don't want to do it. That's okay.
Now I know you haven't been on an AMM3D system. The graphs that Tyler put up demonstrate forearm rotation not wrist rotation. Once you go through the digitization process a couple times (I have) you understand how to read the graphs better. Your raidus and ulna are digitized as a segment and if you went through this process you wouldn't have made such a mistake in your last post. I specifically asked about flexion/extension in the wrists and you bring up forearm rotation. Keep trying. (And anatomically, pronation/supination is technically an elbow movement.)
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Post by jeffy on Aug 1, 2013 13:05:43 GMT -5
And you can't acknowledge that it is all there in the articles!
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Aug 1, 2013 13:07:22 GMT -5
Jeffy -
forearms aren't wrists in the AMM3D graphs!
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Post by Richie3Jack on Aug 1, 2013 13:26:22 GMT -5
Let's at least attempt to keep this civil.
3JACK
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Aug 1, 2013 13:29:43 GMT -5
Here's a quote directly from Kelvin's April 2013 article about the drive/hold release: "The right wrist of a drive/holder moves from extension to slightly less extended at impact. In other words it is moving toward flexion but it doesn’t actually get to the flexed position. Drive/holders have a slow ROF." Here is Tyler's right wrist graph of a bowed drive/holder (green line folks): Here's is Tyler right wrist graph of a roller (green line folks): There is simply no way that someone can state that the trail wrist is "slightly less extended" at impact for a drive holder. In fact, the extension for the roller and the bowed drive holder at impact are very close (12* vs. 16*). This is why the "look" of video can be deceiving. A drive/holder might "look" like they're holding off flexion in their right hand when in fact their right hand is going into flexion very, very quickly. The drive/holder alleged slow rate of flexion claim doesn't correlate with the graphs. The flexion for a roller and drive holder in the trail wrist is very, very fast! Of course, nothing in the articles about what's driving/holding (especially in relation to the wrist). One must "drive" or "hold" with and against something. No answer.
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Post by jeffy on Aug 1, 2013 13:42:38 GMT -5
Nice analysis, but you clearly haven't read the articles. The bowed DHer and the roller have very similar wrist flexion and extension. The big difference is the rate of trail forearm rotation. Next.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Aug 1, 2013 13:54:39 GMT -5
The graphs demonstrates that Kelvin's claims that the drive/holder have a slow rate of flexion is completely wrong. At least you acknowledge the error. Of course, the next problem you encounter is the claim that the relase style means a slower ROC and a slower ROC means better clubface control.
You haven't been on AMM3D. That's for sure.
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