Defining an OTT move

[imperfectgolfer]

3jack

You started a thread at brianmanzella's forum on an OTT move.

www.brianmanzella.com/forum/golfing-discussions/13085-definition-ott-vs-swinging-left.html

I think that many forum members in that forum couldn't agree on what represents an "OTT move". However, I personally think that it can be accurately defined. Here is my personal definition.

I believe that an OTT move must meet two criteria to be "correctly" labeled as being OTT.

Criteria 1: The clubshaft swing plane must be steeper in the downswing compared than the backswing.

Criteria 2: The downswing clubshaft plane must be steeper than the TSP and result in an out-to-in clubhead swingpath through the impact zone.

Consider Sam Snead's swing.



This diagram is from Jim McLean's book on the "Slot Swing".

Jim McLean labels this a reverse slot swing because the clubshaft path in the downswing is steeper than the clubshaft path in the backswing. However, I don't believe that Sam Snead is coming OTT - because his downswing path is not steeper than the TSP.

Golfers who have a downswing clubshaft path that is steeper than the TSP usually have two faults - i) a tendency to roundhouse their right shoulder at the start of the donswing and ii) a tendency to move their hands too far outwards in the direction of the ball-target line at the start of the downswing. That results in a "true" OTT swing.

Feel free to disagree with my opinion.

Jeff.

[Richie3Jack]

Jeff,

I wrote a blog post on this awhile ago.

What I was looking for was the difference between 'swinging left' properly and making the hazardous version of an OTT move.

From the way I define it, the deadly OTT move gets the plane line going to the left. But 'swinging left' properly is not a deadly move at all.

I agree with Manzella's thought that a 'true' OTT move is technically any move where the golfer's downswing is above the plane that it was on in the backswing. However, I think the deadly type of OTT move the clubhead goes over the target line on the downswing.

I think the bad OTT move is basically the golfer swinging left by using the arms and hands and the proper 'swing left' motion is the golfer swinging left by using their pivot and moving the plane line left with that pivot.




3JACK

[gmbtempe]

goes over the target line on the downswing

agree, you can come down steeper than the TSP and still make the swing work, though not sure that is the best move to make but if you cross the ball target line its going to be tough to make the shot work in any type of repetition.

[fearlessgolfer]

So then B Manzella thinks Fred Couples, Bobby Jones and Sam Snead is OTT?

[imperfectgolfer]

3 jack

You wrote-: "From the way I define it, the deadly OTT move gets the plane line going to the left. But 'swinging left' properly is not a deadly move at all."

I believe that an OTT move bends the plane line to the left, while "swinging left" simply means that golfer is constantly keeping his clubshaft on his "selected" impact plane during the entire followthrough (from impact to the 4th parallel). The degree that a golfer "appears" to be "swinging left" depends on his "selected" impact plane - it will "appear" to be greater if the "selected" impact plane is the hand plane rather than the TSP. However, in both instances, the baseline of the inclined plane will remain on the ball-target line (and it is not bent leftwards as occurs in a "true" OTT move).

I personally do not agree with Brian's definition - which is simply a reverse slot swing style.

Addendum: I also believe that if a golfer wants to hit the ball straight using a downward clubhead attack angle, that he will have to aim left of the target by "x" degrees. Then he will be shifting the baseline of his inclined plane to the left by "x" degrees, and trace that new leftwards-directed plane line (SPL) during the followthrough. In doing so, he will "appear" to be "swinging left" even more than he would if he kept his plane line directed at the target, and traced that SPL.

Jeff.

[Richie3Jack]

Jan 19, 2010 15:04:32 GMT -5 fearlessgolfer said:

So then B Manzella thinks Fred Couples, Bobby Jones and Sam Snead is OTT?

Yes...*technically*. But he doesn't think it's OTT in the sense of the really bad OTT that hackers do.

I understand his explanation, but I'm not sure that really helps the 18 handicap who looks at you puzzingly when you say they are OTT.



3JACK

[johngrahamgolf]

Jan 19, 2010 15:46:25 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

3 jack

You wrote-: "From the way I define it, the deadly OTT move gets the plane line going to the left. But 'swinging left' properly is not a deadly move at all."

I believe that an OTT move bends the plane line to the left, while "swinging left" simply means that golfer is constantly keeping his clubshaft on his "selected" impact plane during the entire followthrough (from impact to the 4th parallel). The degree that a golfer "appears" to be "swinging left" depends on his "selected" impact plane - it will "appear" to be greater if the "selected" impact plane is the hand plane rather than the TSP. However, in both instances, the baseline of the inclined plane will remain on the ball-target line (and it is not bent leftwards as occurs in a "true" OTT move).

I personally do not agree with Brian's definition - which is simply a reverse slot swing style.

Addendum: I also believe that if a golfer wants to hit the ball straight using a downward clubhead attack angle, that he will have to aim left of the target by "x" degrees. Then he will be shifting the baseline of his inclined plane to the left by "x" degrees, and trace that new leftwards-directed plane line (SPL) during the followthrough. In doing so, he will "appear" to be "swinging left" even more than he would if he kept his plane line directed at the target, and traced that SPL.

Jeff.

If you're looking for an answer to the x degrees, follow this link for a free download that will tell you exactly how much in order to hit a straight ball for your VSP and AoA.

johngrahamgolf.com/downloads.htm

I also agree that OTT is anytime the clubhead goes beyond the intial starting direction target line before impact.

[imperfectgolfer]

John

You wrote-: "I also agree that OTT is anytime the clubhead goes beyond the initial starting direction target line before impact."

Could you please be more specific. Do you think that the clubhead must cross from right-to-left across the ball-target line, or do you believe that anytime the clubhead crosses the ball-target line represents an OTT move? Also, do you believe that an OTT move definition must include a description of a causative element?

Jeff.

[johngrahamgolf]

Jan 20, 2010 0:14:58 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

John

You wrote-: "I also agree that OTT is anytime the clubhead goes beyond the initial starting direction target line before impact."

Could you please be more specific. Do you think that the clubhead must cross from right-to-left across the ball-target line, or do you believe that anytime the clubhead crosses the ball-target line represents an OTT move? Also, do you believe that an OTT move definition must include a description of a causative element?

Jeff.

I don't believe the clubhead must cross from right to left across the ball target line. In fact, I don't believe the ball target line has anything to do with definining OTT(unless that's where the player is trying to start the ball). I think OTT is better defined by where the player is intending to start their shot(or as I call the initial starting direction line). The sooner the clubhead crosses this line the more OTT their swing is.

I don't think OTT must include a description of a causative element. If a player swings further left than intended, I would call that OTT.

I think an argument can be made for defining OTT by the severity of the relationship of the stance line and intended starting direction line. The more the stance line is right of the intended starting direction, the more over the top their swing when executed correctly for a normal nonobstructed shot from tee or fairway.

[mudball]

In my opinion an OTT move is where the hands are thrown out nearer to the ball early in the downswing and then pulled across the plane line on a steeper angle than they went up.
I think a key effect of an OTT swing is a changed plane line so that the plane is now across the target line rather than parallel to it.
I speak with authority as I can execute the OTT move perfectly - it's the one thing I excel at. But I'm not bitter...!

[Richie3Jack]

I think the big thing is where the shoulders are. If they are closed or square at impact and the clubhead is thrown out away from the body and more towards or over the target line, that's the deadly OTT move.

If the shoulders are open at impact, then the golfer is more or less using the pivot to keep the club on plane *after* impact.



3JACK

[imperfectgolfer]

3jack

I cannot understand post #10 where your write about the position of the shoulders at impact/after impact.

I agree with post #9 - that implies that the primary causative element of an OTT move occurs in the early downswing - when the arms/clubshaft are thrown outwards in the direction of the ball-target line.



This SLAP diagram shows the OTT clubhead path - in black. It first moves outwards before it moves steeply downwards along a too-steep path that finally becomes out-to-in the late downswing.

Jeff.