Post by Richie3Jack on Jan 8, 2014 10:00:25 GMT -5
In the Colin Montgomerie swing I discussed how even though he was harassed in the US, it was essentially a compliment because if the Planet Earth had to play a bunch of invading golf-playing monsters for world domination, Monty would one of the very first players that American golf fans would want on their team. The other would be Ballesteros.
Seve is a bit more peculiar because as tough as Monty was, Ballesteros was more than tough, he was flat out vicious. He was Bill Belichick and Gordon Gekko type of competitor with the showmanship of a matador.
Ever have one of those friends or family members that when they argue with you about anything they don’t just ‘bring the heavy artillery’, they come out with the nukes, mustard gas and biochemical weapons? That was Seve when it came to competition in golf.
Part of me really hated him for it, particularly dancing on the greens when the Ryder Cup matches were still being played. But another part of me adored him for it. I think what I loved about Seve is that he said that he loved nothing more than beating American golfers on American soil. That’s why the Ryder Cup was so special for him. I don’t think we’ve had an American golfer that has loved beating Europeans on European soil since probably Trevino.
Obviously, Seve was known for his putting and short game. These 2 videos really demonstrate his wizardry on and around the greens:
Seve was also known for finding trouble and to the point that by 1994 his ballstriking was all but shot. With that, I’m a bit more interested in what changes were made. I know Seve started working with Mac in 1991 and proceeded to win 4 times on the European Tour from 1991-1992. But as Jaime Diaz put it, Seve had a belief of some sort that you had talent and that would only last for so long before you ‘lost your talent’ and then it was gone forever.
Anyway, I’ve looked at Seve’s swing from the caddy view and there just isn’t much of anything that stands out. He does move his head off the ball a bit in the backswing kinda like Tiger was doing in his latter years with Haney. I tend to feel that was a bigger problem for Tiger because he didn’t always move his head off the ball than Seve who did move it quite a bit. Somebody like Bubba Watson, who moves off the ball a lot shouldn’t have a problem because he’s always done it and has figured out how to hit it while doing so.
But where we start to see big changes is from the DTL view. Here’s an early swing of Seve’s:
(CLICK TO ENLARGE)
Nothing really stands out in the backswing until p4. He still looks pretty good here as his rear knee has straightened, he has some hip slant, his shoulders are not flat. He just has an upright left arm as his right elbow flies out and that also produces a fairly long backswing.
Seve was known to be very long off the tee in his prime and was known for hitting some substantial bombs off the tee. I remember he hit a few in the final round of the 1986 Masters which included the eagle on 13 and then another bomb on 15 that put him in perfect position for another eagle and as Tom Kite put it ‘the worst shot I’ve ever seen a great player hit.’
But, I think we start to see where some possible issues arose with his ballstriking at p5.5. His shaft plane is fairly upright for a Tour player with the left arm jutted out quite a bit. Also, his shoulders are very closed.
The upright shaft plane means that the shaft has to exit in an upright fashion to have any chance of resulting in a square path. It also means that in all likelihood the attack angle is steep. Seve was often accused of ‘hanging back’ in the downswing and I can see a little of it. I just think that was his way of compensating for the upright shaft plane at p5.5.
The closed shoulders here will mean that the path is likely to go inside-to-out. So when you combine the shaft plane and the closed shoulders, the path can go very far inside-to-out and from my experience it is very difficult to control your misses. The attack angle makes things difficult and it becomes hard to control the dynamic loft and the face angle. Both of which are hugely important to hitting it well.
And here we can see an older Seve swing. The backswing is much flatter. The shoulders are not as closed and he’s not as steep at p5.5.
(CLICK TO ENLARGE)
I think in the end he would roll over the wrists into the release regardless of release style. His grip might have played part of the factor and I think Seve was likely one of those types that would say ‘well, this way of swinging worked for me before, it should work again.’ So you had an upright shaft plane at p5.5 and then rolling over the release. That’s very difficult to time and I don’t see the reward in doing so.
3JACK
Seve is a bit more peculiar because as tough as Monty was, Ballesteros was more than tough, he was flat out vicious. He was Bill Belichick and Gordon Gekko type of competitor with the showmanship of a matador.
Ever have one of those friends or family members that when they argue with you about anything they don’t just ‘bring the heavy artillery’, they come out with the nukes, mustard gas and biochemical weapons? That was Seve when it came to competition in golf.
Part of me really hated him for it, particularly dancing on the greens when the Ryder Cup matches were still being played. But another part of me adored him for it. I think what I loved about Seve is that he said that he loved nothing more than beating American golfers on American soil. That’s why the Ryder Cup was so special for him. I don’t think we’ve had an American golfer that has loved beating Europeans on European soil since probably Trevino.
Obviously, Seve was known for his putting and short game. These 2 videos really demonstrate his wizardry on and around the greens:
Seve was also known for finding trouble and to the point that by 1994 his ballstriking was all but shot. With that, I’m a bit more interested in what changes were made. I know Seve started working with Mac in 1991 and proceeded to win 4 times on the European Tour from 1991-1992. But as Jaime Diaz put it, Seve had a belief of some sort that you had talent and that would only last for so long before you ‘lost your talent’ and then it was gone forever.
Anyway, I’ve looked at Seve’s swing from the caddy view and there just isn’t much of anything that stands out. He does move his head off the ball a bit in the backswing kinda like Tiger was doing in his latter years with Haney. I tend to feel that was a bigger problem for Tiger because he didn’t always move his head off the ball than Seve who did move it quite a bit. Somebody like Bubba Watson, who moves off the ball a lot shouldn’t have a problem because he’s always done it and has figured out how to hit it while doing so.
But where we start to see big changes is from the DTL view. Here’s an early swing of Seve’s:
(CLICK TO ENLARGE)
Nothing really stands out in the backswing until p4. He still looks pretty good here as his rear knee has straightened, he has some hip slant, his shoulders are not flat. He just has an upright left arm as his right elbow flies out and that also produces a fairly long backswing.
Seve was known to be very long off the tee in his prime and was known for hitting some substantial bombs off the tee. I remember he hit a few in the final round of the 1986 Masters which included the eagle on 13 and then another bomb on 15 that put him in perfect position for another eagle and as Tom Kite put it ‘the worst shot I’ve ever seen a great player hit.’
But, I think we start to see where some possible issues arose with his ballstriking at p5.5. His shaft plane is fairly upright for a Tour player with the left arm jutted out quite a bit. Also, his shoulders are very closed.
The upright shaft plane means that the shaft has to exit in an upright fashion to have any chance of resulting in a square path. It also means that in all likelihood the attack angle is steep. Seve was often accused of ‘hanging back’ in the downswing and I can see a little of it. I just think that was his way of compensating for the upright shaft plane at p5.5.
The closed shoulders here will mean that the path is likely to go inside-to-out. So when you combine the shaft plane and the closed shoulders, the path can go very far inside-to-out and from my experience it is very difficult to control your misses. The attack angle makes things difficult and it becomes hard to control the dynamic loft and the face angle. Both of which are hugely important to hitting it well.
And here we can see an older Seve swing. The backswing is much flatter. The shoulders are not as closed and he’s not as steep at p5.5.
(CLICK TO ENLARGE)
I think in the end he would roll over the wrists into the release regardless of release style. His grip might have played part of the factor and I think Seve was likely one of those types that would say ‘well, this way of swinging worked for me before, it should work again.’ So you had an upright shaft plane at p5.5 and then rolling over the release. That’s very difficult to time and I don’t see the reward in doing so.
3JACK