Softer/Lighter or Firmer/Heavier

[cloran]

On another forum I started a thread discussing my decision to perhaps put X100 or X200s in my irons. I've always played S300s because that's what I was "supposed" to play based only on my swing speed. But after putting in an X300 in my driver as an experiment I found out just how much heavier/stiffer/shorter has helped me.... there's no going back.

This was one reply from a Pro... what do you think: I have the opposite view.

error on the side of flexibility. play the most flexible shaft you can... provided you can maintain a good non-balooning trajectory, and while swinging within yourself. it's old school, but i think that's better advice then anything you'll ever get for picking a shaft.

not that anyone at golfwrx would fall into this category, but what most people do is find a shaft that might fit if they swung as hard as they could on a good day. they don't play like that, so it's the wrong shaft. and further, if they did play like that, they would need a lesson because they shouldn't. to compound the problem, they all think they hit the ball further then they do. when you see some pga tour players and champions tour players using S flex shafts, you have to really wonder.

strong men use to play with wood shafts that were as or more flexible then womens shafts today. sure, we all made the transition to steel a long time ago, but the point is a slightly more flexible shaft is not going to prevent you from playing great golf, but a shaft too stiff can easily prevent you from playing great golf.

if you error a little on the side of flexibility, you'll hit shots higher, further, error more left, have a better sense of clubhead which promotes rhythm / swinging within yourself... all things that are good. shaft selections that error on the side of stiffness hit shots shorter, lower, error more right, with less sense of clubhead, and inevitably these golfers are prone to swing too hard in an attempt to get the shaft to work for their swing... all things that aren't that great from most golfers.

[gmbtempe]

I believe this line of thinking mirrored what Nicklaus did with his irons.

[Richie3Jack]

I think you need to go with what you feel comfortable. I played with a guy in some mini-tour events that was hitting drives 350+ and he had R300 shafts in his clubs.

I personally prefer a little stiffer shaft and heavier clubs. I think heavier is a bit more important than flex just because it allows me to get into a better downswing sequence so impact is more consistent.





3JACK

[slice_oftheday]

I'm with Rich on the heavier/stiffer preference. I play heavier X flex in my woods and hybrid, and S300 in my irons which are heavily weighed down with lead tape. I'm pretty small, 5'10" 135 lbs, but heavier/stiffer is what I feel comfortable with. For tennis I've always used the heaviest and smallest frame available growing up, really keeps the striking solid and feel day-in day-out, still playing with something thats about 12.5 oz and 90 sq in. today

[jonnygrouville]

For me, ball-flight has always been an issue with softer shafts. The blades I used when I was younger and through college had R400s. When I moved to more 'helpful' clubs, I needed stiffer shafts to keep the ball-flight down. Not strictly blades, but I have S300s in my MP-32s.

My favourite shaft for woods is the uniflex steel in my crappy old Warbird three wood!

The one time I tried to be fitted for a driver, the machine said I needed XX. I have a stock stiff Aldila NV65 in my driver at the moment and that seems to suit me fine!

[bentshaft]

wouldn't most of you agree that it's a psychological thing up to a point? I'm an aggressive hitter of the ball...I just can't help myself, so that's the way it's gonna go...
But I was very uncomfortable with stiff (or stiffer) shafts as the R flex felt so"good'...
My guy had me hit some various clubs...my usual swing...

they were rifle 7.0 and NEVER veered off line...

stiffer is better IMO...just takes awhile to figure it out!!!

[cloran]

I tried a rather non scientific experiment yesterday. I bought an MP37 5i with a Project X 7.0 shaft. I stacked that up against my gamer ('69 Wilson Bullet Back w/ S300 shaft... 8g of lead tape added to the underside of the shaft starting at the hosel) and another club (Hogan Power Thrust w/ Apex 4).

My gamer went HIGH with a rather predictable trajectory/dispersion... but not as tight as I'd like, hence this thread, lol.

The MP37 was horid! I couldn't stand the shaft at all. The ball easily flew only 1/2 the height of my Wilson 5i. Straight, but zero height. No feel, no fun.

The Hogan was sort of in between... good and bad. A little lower flight, but dispersion wasn't that great. Even when I know I put a good swing on it. I'd look up expecting to see a baby draw and it would be anything but (push, draw, fade, whatever...). I'd put the club down and grab my gamer and *bam* back to normal, so I know it wasn't the swing.

I think I'm a TT DG guy. I prefer the butt stiff/tip soft combo. The Project X was just God awful for me, and I'm glad I bought 1 club for $20 as opposed to a set as an experiment.

So now I'm torn. I like the height of the S300s (but I could certainly lose a little if dispersion improved) but I don't know if S400s hardstepped or X200s is the way to go. The X300 in my driver has been nothing short of a miracle and I don't think I'll game anything else for a LONG time. The X200s should lower my flight a litte and improve dispersion so I think that's the route I'm going to take. The shafts I'm looking at have been spine aligned so that won't hurt either.

[TeddyIrons]

Over at ABS they recommend stiff shafts no matter your swing speed and level. The reasoning is that if you over-accelerate, a stiff shaft will be kinder if you have throwaway. I hope I'm representing that point of view correctly. It makes sense to me, although I also believe that an off centre hit will feel more forgiving with a softer shaft - however, a stiff shaft will home our skills more.

My Mizuno TP-11's have Regular flex in them and I don't think I've ever hit anything stiffer than firm. I'm receiving some Hogan PC's with Apex 4 shafts and I'm interested in feeling the difference, because I have absolutely no experience with trying different shaft types.

[Richie3Jack]

I'm thinking of putting an X300 in a 5-iron of mine to practice with. I've got an Apex 4 in a Apex PC 2-iron of mine...stiff as a board. But *when* you really connect with it, it really takes off. It's actually hard to do and hit it straight. Many times I hit it square and it goes straight, but goes pretty low. Still a nice shot though.

But when I really connect with it, the ball rises like a rocket and goes forever.

As I've stated before, I think one of the key parts that made Hogan great is that he had those unbelievably stiff golf shafts before he discovered 'The Secret' according to his personal clubmaker, Gene Sheeley.

My guess is that Hogan thought he could get rid of the hook with super duper stiff shafts. Well, he couldn't. But over time he wound up developing a strong pivot along with strengthening the muscles we use for golf and when he discovered the secret, Sheeley stated that he tried more normal shafts but hated the feel of them. I think that is key and usually ignored by people, including Hogan fanatics.









3JACK

[golfbaka]

May 20, 2010 22:56:13 GMT -5 cloran said:

On another forum I started a thread discussing my decision to perhaps put X100 or X200s in my irons. I've always played S300s because that's what I was "supposed" to play based only on my swing speed. But after putting in an X300 in my driver as an experiment I found out just how much heavier/stiffer/shorter has helped me.... there's no going back.

.

[/b][/quote]

Don't forget that an untipped X300 in a driver will play more flexible than a x300 in your irons because of the relative tip size. 0.335 versus 0.370 for an iron.

Anybody can 'hit' any shafts they like. I can hit my wife's driver pretty well, just gotta time it right! Personally I prefer a slightly heavier stiffer shaft than my SS would suggest. I also find that for me heavier shafts produce better results under pressure.

[ioz]

May 28, 2010 9:48:16 GMT -5 golfbaka said:

May 20, 2010 22:56:13 GMT -5 cloran said:

On another forum I started a thread discussing my decision to perhaps put X100 or X200s in my irons. I've always played S300s because that's what I was "supposed" to play based only on my swing speed. But after putting in an X300 in my driver as an experiment I found out just how much heavier/stiffer/shorter has helped me.... there's no going back.

.

[/b][/quote]

Don't forget that an untipped X300 in a driver will play more flexible than a x300 in your irons because of the relative tip size. 0.335 versus 0.370 for an iron.

Anybody can 'hit' any shafts they like. I can hit my wife's driver pretty well, just gotta time it right! Personally I prefer a slightly heavier stiffer shaft than my SS would suggest. I also find that for me heavier shafts produce better results under pressure. [/quote]

Depends on what hosel diameter your irons have.
Mostly it's either .370 (parallel tip shafts) or .355 (taper tip shafts). The old hogans are tapered. And driver shafts also come in different shapes and sizes of course...

[kamandi]

I'm reviving this thread as I'm thinking of going a flex weaker, lighter, and higher launch with my irons, so I'm hoping to get some advice.

I'm currently using Hogan Apex 4's on my Hogan Percussions. I got the shafts at e-bay for $40, so I thought it was a good deal. I just assumed I should play an S with my irons, because I play my drivers to an X with high kickpoint.

Trouble is, when I first had them installed, the clubs felt heavy, but the swingweight didn't feel heavy enough. So I had lead tape on them ... according to my clubfitter, their Es now, but I don't know if that's right.

Anyway, these things have nice looking boring trajectories, but I don't believe I launch them high enough to get ideal distance, specially with the long irons. I can hit the 2 iron solid off the mat, but not so in the golf course, plus it isn't going as far as it should go, despite sweet contact. Maybe my swing speed just isn't fast enough to launch these properly.

Now I'm thinking of going to an R flex lite high launching shaft. I saw 2 types cheap on ebay ... a True Temper XL Lite tapered, and a Dynamic Gold R400 Lite tapered.

The Apex 4s seem heavy, boardy, and low trajectory. I'm thinking of going the opposite direction while still keeping a good swing weight. My only real concern is if the shafts feel way too whippy going a flex weaker. I'm assuming the difference isn't big.

Anyway, what do you guys think?

[Richie3Jack]

E's are an extremely heavy swingweight. I play heavy clubs and the heaviest I go is D9 and that's with my 9-iron and wedges.

Generally the long irons should be a bit lighter.

However, the one thing that is being raved about today is MOI matching, which is supposed to get your clubs feeling and playing like the same. So if you hit the 6-iron the best and tell that to a fitter who does MOI matching, they will look at the club and get the MOI of the other clubs to match that 6-iron's MOI. I've heard good reviews from people who have MOI matched their clubs.

But I wouldn't suggest having a 2-4 irons with swingweights in the E's...tough to generate any clubhead speed that way and thus, get the ball into the air.

You may also want to try out the Mizuno Shaft Optimizer to get a better idea of what shaft stiffness you need. It should be free to do, takes about 5 minutes and all it requires for you is to hit a special club and then have the owner of the shaft optimizer type in some numbers into a computer.

To my knowledge, types of shafts you should be hitting isn't all about clubhead speed. It's also about *when* the clubshaft kicks.

The shaft kicked at different time for Hogan than it did Nicklaus, and to my recollection...they had just about equal swing speeds. I think Hogan may have played shafts too stiff for him. Although I think it was a tradeoff for him. I have a 5-iron that I had re-shafted with a X100 shaft that was tipped 2 inches. I can actually hit it quite well and it doesn't waver off line that much. But, I lose about 15 yards of distance.

I think for Hogan he just felt so comfortable playing those super stiff shafts (which he played with *before* he discovered the secret) that he worried more about consistency and accuracy than he did power. And that if he got shaft that truly fit him, he would've hit the ball a lot further. The clubhead speed was certainly there, as I read some research that said they believed he swung the club at 122 mph with the driver.





3JACK

[bentshaft]

a high handicappers opinion

I am built like a fire hydrant(with a beer belly ;D) and have zero problem getting the ball high enough (when I hit it well) with rifle 7.0's
My regular playing partner(about a 8-10) is maybe 5'7 and 135-140 pounds and has found love using apex 4's, with no problem getting the ball up...It took me almost 2 years to get him to try a stiffer shaft and 2 degrees flat LOL ---just cuz I suck does not mean I'm blind!!
Our other buddy is a growing lad, 19 yrs old...maybe 6'1...maybe 145 after a meal...close to a scratch and he hits projectX 7.0's and they are a mile high (too high for my taste)

we have all tried different shafts, clubs etc...

anecdotal evidence only, but the damn ball flight just does not veer with as stiff a club as you can handle.

If my ball goes left--I pulled it---if it goes right, it's a push...simple as that

maybe a stiff KBS? a stiff shaft with a kick point that gets ball up might be a good idea...

all mileage may vary, just my thoughts and obsevations

bent

edit and add--- anything approaching E is IMO too heavy...my gamers are D7 and that may be the highest SW at the club...I have a few old wedges that are E2+ or so---fun to goof around with in the sand, but on a day to day basis, a bit much...I think my club fitter/friend would say D2-3-4 is fine for a place to start...we use a lot of lead tape around here!!

[kamandi]

@richie and bentshaft, thanks for the reply guys.

You're right, I guess the irons I'm playing may have too heavy a swing weight, plus overall, they feel pretty heavy. I'll look into a lighter profile with a more reasonable swing weight, but definitely in the Ds.

You may be right, my golf shaft problem might not be in the stiffness, but in the kickpoint. I've researched the net on these old Apex 4s, and they're supposed to play like DG S300. On researching that, a lot of people have commented on how they feel "boardy" and the low trajectories, even with the R300.

Now I'm wondering whether to stay at S with a lighter, higher launching shaft of a different brand, or if I should go down to R. I do think I'd like to go lighter.

Richie, good ideas about clubfitting; I don't know if they have MOI fitting here, so I'll have to check. My hurdle with that, though, is that my clubfitter knows I never buy golf shafts locally. I ask him to do the labor, but I always order through the net, as the price difference is huge. He always provides great service, though, and never complains. I just don't want to abuse the relationship by getting fitted for the right shafts, ordering the shafts somewhere else, then having him install it. I think that's too much, hehehe.

I just thought of something right now ... I'll try soft-stepping my irons by 2 steps, so my 3 shaft will be used for the 5i. The weight will still be pretty heavy, and it will probably still feel pretty "boardy" with a low ball flight, but I will better gauge if it's a kick-point issue or a flex issue. I plan to replace these anyway, so I might as well give this one more shot.

By both your responses, I'm thinking it's more of a kickpoint issue than a flex issue, and the "boardy" feel because of that. If the softstep didn't help much, it's definitely the kickpoint and feel of the shaft.

Again, thanks guys.