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Post by kevcarter on Jan 24, 2010 17:44:21 GMT -5
How can angle of attack, NOT effect backspin? That's been like driver fitting 101 forever! Kevin
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Post by hitman119 on Jan 24, 2010 18:08:37 GMT -5
Where did you read this?
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jan 24, 2010 18:10:52 GMT -5
Who said it didn't effect backspin?
I remember in the club championship this year I was 2 shots behind the leader and on the par-5 14th hold I needed a big drive and I hit it very hard and dead straight. But I could feel and tell that my attack angle was pretty steep and could just see the ball have a big time spin rate, and despite hitting it really well, I lost about 30 yards of distance compared to my normal, crushing of a driver.
It took going for the par-5 in two completely out of play and I had to hit a hybrid into a tight spot, avoiding a fairway bunker, OB left and water right, just so I could have a short enough club to go for the flag on the 3rd shot. I did hit a pretty good 3rd shot and hit a great 10 foot putt for bird that somehow lipped out.
But, I really would've like to have seen the Trackman numbers on that drive, just to show that hitting down on a driver can be very hazardous.
3JACK
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Post by hitman119 on Jan 24, 2010 18:21:45 GMT -5
I agree. I'm like a lot of S&T theories but hitting down you lose yardage. Can't argue with numbers.
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 24, 2010 18:24:06 GMT -5
This is a good question, if attack angle was a big component wouldn't the elbow plane players have big advantage, or is that wrong? Nicklaus was a TSP player and hit it a mile and could hit it high with the driver. Mickelson is a TSP player and he is as long as anyone.
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Post by hitman119 on Jan 24, 2010 18:42:19 GMT -5
You can still hit up on different planes. It has to do with degrees of angle into the ball. Up or Down
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Post by kevcarter on Jan 24, 2010 18:45:22 GMT -5
This is a good question, if attack angle was a big component wouldn't the elbow plane players have big advantage, or is that wrong? Nicklaus was a TSP player and hit it a mile and could hit it high with the driver. Mickelson is a TSP player and he is as long as anyone. I was arguing on another forum that AOA absolutely effects backspin. The following was posted, and I lost the battle. I find it hard to believe! Kevin
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jan 24, 2010 20:00:20 GMT -5
Greg -
You're thinking of Vertical Swing Plane (VSP). VSP is the inclined plane the golfer swings upon. It can be the hands only, elbow, TSP, squared shoulder plane, etc. It is measured from the DTL view.
Attack angle is measured from the FACE ON view. It is the angle that the clubhead approaches the ball at impact.
On Trackman, attack angles are usually in the -3 to +3 degree range. VSP is usually in the 55-65* range on Trackman.
The S&T guys believe that you shouldn't hit up on the driver because you'll be too inaccurate. I don't think that they are necessarily wrong, but I think that thinking is somewhat flawed.
You can hit the ball CONSISTENTLY DEAD STRAIGHT with a very upward hit with the driver.
Still, the actual accuracy of hitting fairways can be problematic.
Why?
1. Wind. Upward hits go higher, wind takes effect.
2. The 'bottleneck effect.' Fairways tend to bottleneck. So the further you hit the ball, the more narrow the fairway usually gets.
I believe power is a legitimate component of becoming a good ballstriker. If you're just missing fairways because your AoA is upward and the wind and bottleneck effects are coming into play, I would live that because you can essentially be hitting the ball dead straight, but powers out of your control are causing you to just miss fairways. Still, you should be left with shorter 2nd shots.
I think that is MUCH different than the player, even the Tour pro, who misses fairways by a lot but hits it so far that they either:
1. Miss by so much that they actually still have a shot. Like a golfer who misses a treelined fairway by so much that they are actually in another fairway and have a clear swing despite missing in an atrocious fashion.
2. Miss by so much and are in deep rough, but it doesn't matter because they have such a short shot onto the green or if they take a bogey, that's alright because they will likely birdie or eagle a par-5.
This is something that I think the game should try to get grip on, especially the PGA Tour, so the came doesn't become completely about power.
Anyway, John Graham and I discussed this a few months ago and I believe that you can be quite accurate, consistent and long by hitting up with the driver as long as you swing out to the right enough (D-Plane) and have minimal shaft lean.
Almost all of the LPGA golfers hit up on the driver and there are plenty of them that are accurate and hit it very straight. They also usually don't have very much shaft lean. That's the big part of my logic behind hitting up and still being straight.
In tomorrow's blog I will discuss some thoughts on shaft lean.
3JACK
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jan 24, 2010 20:03:01 GMT -5
This is a good question, if attack angle was a big component wouldn't the elbow plane players have big advantage, or is that wrong? Nicklaus was a TSP player and hit it a mile and could hit it high with the driver. Mickelson is a TSP player and he is as long as anyone. I was arguing on another forum that AOA absolutely effects backspin. The following was posted, and I lost the battle. I find it hard to believe! Kevin Tuxen says 'assuming that the ball is impacted on the same spot on the face.' That may be a large assumption. 3JACK
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 24, 2010 20:23:21 GMT -5
ok, but doesnt the VSP have an impact on the AoA (what is this, Good Morning Vietnam?).
If you come in very steep wont you have a positive (if positive is downward) angle of attack? In theory I guess a steeper VSP means moving the ball farther forward to get a neutral AoA?
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Post by kevcarter on Jan 24, 2010 20:35:38 GMT -5
I was arguing on another forum that AOA absolutely effects backspin. The following was posted, and I lost the battle. I find it hard to believe! Kevin Tuxen says 'assuming that the ball is impacted on the same spot on the face.' That may be a large assumption. 3JACK ;D ;D ;D That was my part of my argument as well! Kevin
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jan 24, 2010 20:53:09 GMT -5
ok, but doesnt the VSP have an impact on the AoA (what is this, Good Morning Vietnam?). If you come in very steep wont you have a positive (if positive is downward) angle of attack? In theory I guess a steeper VSP means moving the ball farther forward to get a neutral AoA? I don't think VSP does have an impact on AoA. However, VSP does impact the ball flight. The best example is the 'swinging left' to hit it dead straight. If you are on a perfectly 60* VSP and your clubface is dead square to the target at impact...in order to hit it dead straight with an iron, you need to have a 'horizontal swing plane' (aka plane line) that is 1/2 of the attack angle. So, provided the VSP is 60*, clubface is 0.0* and the attack angle is -4* with an iron....then your swing plane has to be -2*. But, if the VSP is more upright, say 65*, and the clubface is 0.0* and the attack angle is -4*, then your swing plane (I believe) has to be even more left of that -2*. I'd like to get John Graham involved on this, but I don't think VSP and AoA are tied together. 3JACK
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johngrahamgolf
'88 Apex Redlines
3Jack Top 20 Short Game/Putting Instructor
Posts: 229
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Post by johngrahamgolf on Jan 24, 2010 22:37:48 GMT -5
Ok, so I see too questions: 1) Does AoA effect spin rate? 2) Does VSP effect AoA? The first question was answered with a reference to a trackman newsletter article which you can find from Jan '08 at the trackmangolf site. trackman.dk/getmedia/0ba14a84-1cea-4a38-a825-e146f3838289/TMNewsJan2008.aspx. " It turns out that if you hit down or up on the ball with the same club, the spin rate will be more or less identical if you impact the ball on the same spot on the face." Basically, for any club, removing technique from the equation, the club will deliver the same spin loft regardless of AoA. That along with impact location determine the amount of spin. Spin loft is defined as angle difference between dynamic loft and AoA. I think in the real world an argument can be made that for two different people or same person with different techniques, you can easily have a situation where more down AoA will produce more back spin. However, it is not the AoA that is increasing the spin. It is the technique employed that will. If the technique produces the same spin loft when hitting up or down, you will get similar spin rates assuming same impact location. Hope that helps. As far as VSP effecting AoA, I don't see any correlation between these two. Rich is correct in saying that VSP and AoA determine how much and which direction you need to adjust HSP to hit a perfectly straight ball. Don't confuse VSP with steep or shallow.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jan 24, 2010 22:46:53 GMT -5
John,
What technique are you talking about? Like vertical hinging or trying to hit a draw or a fade, etc?
3JACK
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johngrahamgolf
'88 Apex Redlines
3Jack Top 20 Short Game/Putting Instructor
Posts: 229
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Post by johngrahamgolf on Jan 24, 2010 23:15:59 GMT -5
John, What technique are you talking about? Like vertical hinging or trying to hit a draw or a fade, etc? 3JACK No, just any techniques different than the persons normal technique. IOW, they create a different amount of spin loft than their "normal".
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