davidwedzik
Beat up Radials
3Jack Top 50 Instructor
Posts: 26
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Post by davidwedzik on Apr 12, 2011 9:39:02 GMT -5
I saw no super flat swings except Kucher, who's club is still as high off of the ground as mine. He's tall. I saw LONG HITTING. I said the history books will show I was right. I saw quite a lot of on plane motions...liked that...not sure who's teaching "super flat"...this would be like me asking why you are teaching "super upright". Now, I know that's not the case but since the people reading may not know it wouldn't matter much. I saw LONG HITTING too...and liked it a lot. Personally I hit it LONG and I don't know of any SnT instructor who doesn't work with their students to hit it longer...efficiently. I say the history books will show that the best golfers on a given week will win tournaments...period. Many reasons why they may. I CAN tell you with certainty that if we try to teach masses of golfers to do what worked for those winners we may look good or we may look bad. My advice...be sure to pick winners whose components mix well with the guy (or girl) you are teaching that day. Dave
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Post by gmbtempe on Apr 12, 2011 9:52:45 GMT -5
What is a "Tripod" pivot? Tiger does not move off the ball at all, he was right there. How much does your head need to move off the ball for it not to be a tripod pivot, is there some official BM measurement? I am not talking about head swivel either, actual movement? I just watched Adam Scott and Jason Day, they might move about an inch or so.
I am with you on the cut off finish, funny thing is never heard that from any instructor I have worked with.
So you think your position looks good in two majors, so what? And in the 70's I guess square to square looked good.
Good thing Tiger did not win with his knew hands deep, rotated shoulder turn, centered pivot.....but I bet somehow he would have fit "your" pattern as well.
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brianmanzella
Apex II's
3Jack Top 50 Swing & Top 20 Short Game Instructor
Posts: 63
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Post by brianmanzella on Apr 12, 2011 9:59:55 GMT -5
What's a Tripod pivot? Boy, am I posting in the wrong place..... I am doing a swing analysis of CS's swing, and I am sure it will get pulled over here soon. Isn't it funny? I never said one time in my life that S&T or darome or 1p2p or tripod swings weren't GREAT for the right folks. But, you have guys taking shots at my student's improvements? ?? Richie, that needs to come down. One last time for clarity: Good Method for someāNo revolution.
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Post by gmbtempe on Apr 12, 2011 10:06:18 GMT -5
There is no clarity in your posts, I know what you mean by Tripod but it does not make sense to me, most players are centered, yes some move off the ball but not much at all.
This "left leaning" statements are just false, the spine should not be leaning at the target at the top of the swing, at least thats not my understanding.
You might not saying they will not work for some folks but what your post sure baited in the folks to come bash those methods....which was your goal in my opinion.
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davidwedzik
Beat up Radials
3Jack Top 50 Instructor
Posts: 26
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Post by davidwedzik on Apr 12, 2011 10:13:04 GMT -5
But, you have guys taking shots at my student's improvements? ?? Richie, that needs to come down. Brian - in fairness nobody that I know starts forum threads taking shots at your ability as an instructor. That seems to be reserved for your forum. So getting on the high horse about my mention of your student's improvements doesn't seem a good "fit" if you know what I mean. In the end I mentioned it because I really haven't ever seen much of that type of thing. Am I being fair in saying that? I would LOVE to see some before/after type vids photos of some of your students. I am certain I could learn a great deal from being able to see the changes and discern how you may have gone about attaining them. Honestly...here is something I really don't get...I'm pretty sure that (no matter what you want to call what I teach) you would have more common ground with me (and many others I have taught alongside) than with, say 90%, of the other teachers in the world...yet you choose to single out SnT/limited pivot/tripod or whatever you want to call it...that part just seems odd to me and I have always wondered about it. Comments would be appreciated there. Thanks. Dave
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brianmanzella
Apex II's
3Jack Top 50 Swing & Top 20 Short Game Instructor
Posts: 63
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Post by brianmanzella on Apr 12, 2011 10:18:15 GMT -5
This is a stack and tilt/darome centric forum. I have no problem with that. I have my own forum.
But, since my posts get pulled over here from time to time, I come here to defend myself from a biased crowd.
You can try to deflect from my thesis all you want, but I will just keep repeating it for the odd person with an open mind:
The last two majors, on long hard courses, had golfers coming down the stretch with dynamic pivots that shift their center of gravity to the right and then the left. They had upper bodies, far more "behind the ball" than I see portrayed on sites like this one (Richie3jack) as ideal. They have arms that have a pretty good amount of LIFT to them on the backswing, with a left arm plane higher that the shoulders. They don't have any chopped off looking finishes either.
So......this shows a trend, albeit, a two major trend.
It also shows, a move AWAY from the left SHIFTING pivots, and no shifting pivots, on the PGA Tour.
For the record, I have no problem with any of the methods that teach these patterns, and I believe that performed correctly, all of the above patterns can work, will work, and will win again on tour.
But I don't see a revolution.
What I see is a couple of really good methods, being taught by smart folks who know them well, to a small percentage of golfers of all levels.
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davidwedzik
Beat up Radials
3Jack Top 50 Instructor
Posts: 26
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Post by davidwedzik on Apr 12, 2011 10:31:27 GMT -5
This is a stack and tilt/darome centric forum. I have no problem with that. I have my own forum. But, since my posts get pulled over here from time to time, I come here to defend myself from a biased crowd. You can try to deflect from my thesis all you want, but I will just keep repeating it for the odd person with an open mind: The last two majors, on long hard courses, had golfers coming down the stretch with dynamic pivots that shift their center of gravity to the right and then the left. They had upper bodies, far more "behind the ball" than I see portrayed on sites like this one (Richie3jack) as ideal. They have arms that have a pretty good amount of LIFT to them on the backswing, with a left arm plane higher that the shoulders. They don't have any chopped off looking finishes either. So......this shows a trend, albeit, a two major trend. It also shows, a move AWAY from the left SHIFTING pivots, and no shifting pivots, on the PGA Tour. For the record, I have no problem with any of the methods that teach these patterns, and I believe that performed correctly, all of the above patterns can work, will work, and will win again on tour. But I don't see a revolution. What I see is a couple of really good methods, being taught by smart folks who know them well, to a small percentage of golfers of all levels. Thanks for the reply...that is fair and you are more than entitled to your opinion. We can agree to disagree on the part about trends, COG shifts, what percentage of golfers we can reach...and simply move on. Thanks again for reply and clarification...love to have a beer someday and discuss further...pretty sure you'd like me :-) Dave
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Post by gmbtempe on Apr 12, 2011 10:34:40 GMT -5
This is a stack and tilt/darome centric forum. I have no problem with that. I have my own forum. But, since my posts get pulled over here from time to time, I come here to defend myself from a biased crowd. You can try to deflect from my thesis all you want, but I will just keep repeating it for the odd person with an open mind: The last two majors, on long hard courses, had golfers coming down the stretch with dynamic pivots that shift their center of gravity to the right and then the left. They had upper bodies, far more "behind the ball" than I see portrayed on sites like this one (Richie3jack) as ideal. They have arms that have a pretty good amount of LIFT to them on the backswing, with a left arm plane higher that the shoulders. They don't have any chopped off looking finishes either. So......this shows a trend, albeit, a two major trend. It also shows, a move AWAY from the left SHIFTING pivots, and no shifting pivots, on the PGA Tour. For the record, I have no problem with any of the methods that teach these patterns, and I believe that performed correctly, all of the above patterns can work, will work, and will win again on tour. But I don't see a revolution. What I see is a couple of really good methods, being taught by smart folks who know them well, to a small percentage of golfers of all levels. If you had this rather than then your original post I don't think people would have any issue. Your short original post though certainly sounds a lot more like an invitation to bash. Even people on your own forum were not sure what you were saying exactly. I have defended you a lot on many forums even though I don't agree with everything you say. I think I agree with Dave we would be on the same side of thinking on 90% of the golf swing.
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Post by kamandi on Apr 12, 2011 10:43:49 GMT -5
@richie, on swinging flat, it would not make a difference if the guy is 6'4 or 5'7, except if the 6'4 guy is trying to swing like the 5'7 guy.
On the topic at hand, I think there's a movement in golf in general (not just stack and tilt) in putting maybe too much emphasis on keeping the swing compact, in order to lessen movement, and thus lessen mistakes. Don't shift right, or that's more coordination to hit ball first. Shorten your backswing, so it's easier to bring the club to the hitting position. Stay on one plane, so you don't have to make adjustments to get on plane. Over emphasis on trying to stay connected throughout the whole swing, to the point of not getting a lot of width in the backswing or the follow through. Swing with the body, to lessen the mistakes of the hands.
All of these are supposed to make your swing more error free, but there are important stuff that gets sacrificed in the process.
In the end, it's really up to the player to weigh the trade-offs for the style of swing he chooses.
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Post by iacas on Apr 12, 2011 11:16:21 GMT -5
Matt Kuchar has a very flat swing, but is tall. I assume that Brian's assertion is that they 'cancel' each other out. So where do members here stand on this? Height has no bearing on the actual measurement or every tall player would be "upright" and every short player would be "flat." It's also interesting to note that steeper shoulder turns make swings appear flatter than they are. So......this shows a trend, albeit, a two major trend. It also shows, a move AWAY from the left SHIFTING pivots, and no shifting pivots, on the PGA Tour. Trends don't really exist in spans that short. Phil Mickelson won two majors in a row at one point, and nearly a third. Did his swing exhibit a trend towards all of Phil's swing characteristics or is he simply talented enough to employ a swing that may not be perfect but works well enough roughly 40 times or so over his career? Using PGA Tour winners - particularly "the last two" only - as "proof" of anything besides their tremendous talent is silly. "Trends" require a lot more time. And hey, what are we seeing over the past, oh, decade? LESS shifting off the ball. More centered pivots. If Tiger wins the next three majors with Foley's method, does that mean that you're been proven incorrect? I wouldn't say so on my own, but if I were to apply your logic, I'd have to say it did. Three is an even bigger trend than two, after all. :-P
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Post by Richie3Jack on Apr 12, 2011 11:25:53 GMT -5
A 2 major trend is not a trend.
I know if I used that small of a sample size to trend forecasts and budgets, I'd be extremely inaccurate. And the problem with using a Major is that it's just one guy winning. I'd prefer to see something over a 1 1/2 or 2 season span with all of the tournaments. And see something noticeable before I would call it a trend.
3JACK
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brianmanzella
Apex II's
3Jack Top 50 Swing & Top 20 Short Game Instructor
Posts: 63
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Post by brianmanzella on Apr 12, 2011 11:29:09 GMT -5
1. Richie, can you please change the name of this thread to something like "Manzella sees new era" or something like that. I am certainly not bashing.
2. Erik, Tiger just jacked his arm up and slightly flattened HIS shoulder turn, and nearly won.
3. Do you guys forget, or not read, the blog I wrote defending S&T after Badds won in LA?
4. David, the amount of hype, for both the tripod and the s&t, and how everything else was junk, might have something to do with it.
5. Also David, I taught 30+ people LIVE for 4 and half hours at the TrackMan conference. It speaks for itself. Ask someone who saw it.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Apr 12, 2011 11:44:49 GMT -5
I would agree with the idea that it's a M.O.R.A.D. and S&T centric forum. That doesn't insult me or hurt my feelings.
We've got plenty of members here who use the S&T swing and I'm glad to have them here on the board because they are good members who like to analyze and go into deeper thinking about the golf swing.
But, there's also plenty of Brian Manzella students, followers, etc. here as well. There are also plenty of Shawn Clement followers, students, etc. Same with TGM, 1PS, etc.
But for the most part, the S&T crowd is more willing to post here...again, I'm fine with that.
The main point of this forum is to understand 'where people are coming from.' This way we can get accurate information about what the entire spectrum of golf. And this way there's not really an excuse for somebody who is a member here to state something inaccurately about a particular swing philosophy.
The 'limited' pivot stuff really got me because I've never heard a S&T teach discuss limiting a student's pivot.
Now, from my viewpoint Plummer and Bennett have stated that things in Golf Digest, in the DVD and in the S&T book were not done like they intended. But I've never heard them say they want to limit a golfer's pivot and seen it any book or seen any of their authorized instructors say it.
The 'restricted arm swing' I'm not quite sure about. I know that I've had issues with my own golf swing in that I fold the right arm at p4 more than 90*. I haven't talked with S&T guys about this, but I'm guessing they don't like that.
I know Greg McHatton, not a S&T or M.O.R.A.D. instructor, has talked about 'maximum shoulder rotation and minimal arm travel' and I tend to agree with that concept. But, I'm more concerned with over-folding the right arm than actual arm swing.
As far as M.O.R.A.D. goes, I don't find Mac's swing to be flat or upright. And from everything I've heard, he still hits it extremely long for anybody of any age.
3JACK
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Post by michaelmcloughlin on Apr 12, 2011 12:28:11 GMT -5
So......this shows a trend, albeit, a two major trend. Brian, thanks for the responses. To me this trend is what most instructors prefer and golf mags support articles and pics illustrating shifting the COG right, higher left arm, flatter shoulder turn. So, if this is the status quo, why do golfer still struggle with hitting the ball first, hitting it far and controlling the curvature of the ball?
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Post by dodger on Apr 12, 2011 14:32:47 GMT -5
The most interesting instructional statement that may create a trend was made by the champ. Charl Schwartzel said his father has been his only teacher. He only gets looked at when he is in SA and does not use video or email to work on his game. He tries to keep it simple. Are we getting too detailed and complex for our own good? The swing takes a second and a half. Putting it into sections or focusing on partial movements is tough learning. Clearly Charl is an athlete. However physically a lot of other players are more impressive size wise. No doubt the S&T guys had to give a major nod to marketing and their instruction does involve a full turn of the right hip, straightening right leg and a left shoulder that goes down in the backswing along with an inward hand path. Brian Manzella taught me to do all this when I had a lesson with him. I felt more over the ball, got my swing bottom more forward and result wise my swing improved . He definitely will teach elements that are included within S&T to those that need it. His point is those movements have been in the game forever. Jackie Burke tells a great story of a guy that carved a beautiful wood carving of a dog. Burke asked how he did and he said he cut out everything that did not look like a dog. Schwarzels Dad looked like he cut out everything that did not look like a golf swing. Good teachers seem to do that. I know Manzella does that, my guess is that the guys from Erie do that too. Imagine how much we could agree on if we decided not to use labels.
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