Whew where do we start???? It's bad

[joeunc]

Well I have been playing a long time and have really lost it the last few years. I have all the info:
Lynn Blakes DVD, Shawn Clements DVD, Sevam Dirt book, Manzella vids, and go to lag's forum and read on slicefixer a lot.

I manage to play a little better than bogey golf cause I am a very good chipper and putter. My irons have left me. I have been working the last week on getting more rotary.I was really lunging off the ball and getting poor contact. So my thought is the butt cheek goes back and swing into a bent right leg and not over it. Then get back to left and try to compress. Here is what I see:

-Even though I try to, I get the club too far behind me on the backswing.
-I have always been a flipper and I see no compression
- since the club gets stuck behind me I can get my arms in front of me on the way down and come in from that 4:30 line.
- I over rotate the shoulders it appears and lose spine angle.

Here's the crux, I can do TGM basic and acquired motion no problem.
I can hit those 20 to 30 chip/punches crisply ball first and keep the clubhead below the hands. But when I introduce the full swing, I lose it.

I can see all kinds of bad stuff going on, and really need something, I tell you. Any and all help is greatly appreciated. I know a lot about the swing, I just can't get myself to do it. I made better contact 20yrs ago than now.

The videos could be better, I had to get my wife to just get some angles in yard and she couldn't get to the range with me.

I used swing academy and have 9 vids there including one of the grip.

go to:
www.swingacademy.com/videos.aspx

and in the search box type joeunc and it will bring them up.

once again thanks!!!

[imperfectgolfer]

I will offer you my biased opinion.

I think that your major problem is that you use a reverse slot swing swing style, which causes you to come OTT at the start of the downswing, and then you swing out-to-in through impact.

See my discussion of Bruce Lietzke's swing in my backswing chapter.

perfectgolfswingreview.net/backswing.htm

I would highly recommend that you use a right forearm takeaway, which will allow you to come down the same path in the downswing. If you slot the power package in the "space" created by a reverse-K posture, that will allow you to generate an in-to-square-to-in clubhead path.

Jeff.

[gmbtempe]

joe I see a lot of the problems in your swing that used to be in mine.

I would suspect the reason why you can do basic and acquired motion well is because they are not dependent on your pivot where I think your issues come from.

I agree with Jeff that I would work on using a RFT, your pushing the club in a very wide arc that I don't think your body can support. You need much more pickup and less fan with the forearms. Watch this video on the takeaway, you have plenty of shoulder turn and hip turn but your takeaway is getting you off plane quickly.



You are off plane on the backswing, the butt end is not tracing the plane line, I think the video might help you. So less push away with the club using the RFT, if you get that club working up more you will keep it on plane.

I think you overswing and your hips and shoulders are getting more open then they need to, I just think this hurts in the timing standpoint.

The combination of these things produce a very flat backswing, you wold have to be ricky fowler to drop it from there. I think you can use a reverse slot swing but your backswing and pivot are making it very hard to not cast it as you work that reverse slot. Heck it works for Brian Manzella it can work for you.

I am the furthest away from being a pro or teacher but those are some things I notice.

Maybe a good model for you, notice how much he works the club up in the backswing, and he turns his hips and shoulders much less than you do. You want to have them open but yours are going to far.

[jonnygrouville]

I think your swing looks like a lots of peoples' old swings and an awful lot more peoples' current swings! I know that doesn't seem to help much, but there is plenty of good advice on improving these type of actions.

I do not know Denny at all, but I like where G's swing is going and if you have seen a clip of Denny hitting a golf ball he makes it look as easy as falling off a log. So what do I think? I think you would be well advised to take up this generous offer!

Bang on with the plane advice in my opinion. If it helps, when I was working on this, it really felt like the clubhead was going up whilst my hands were staying low and no matter how hard I tried to get the clubhead up outsides my hands, it was still fractionally under plane for a long long time. Hopefully getting more on plane here will start helping you towards lag and making divots.

Good luck and keep us posted!

[joeunc]

thanks for all the feedback. Like slicefixer says, feel it not always real. I had been struggling so bad I just had to get some pics of the swing. I was so caught up on coming from the inside that I had gotten so flat and was not coming back from the inside but was coming in from OTT. This would result in out to in club path with close face= Hgh pulls out to in with open face = high blocks or slices. In the last 2 days I have tried to not suck it back behind me as much but when I saw the video I was stunned I was still doing it.

Is there such a thing as paralysis by analysis? As I have so many thoughts in my head and so many different theories I am thinking about (TGM, Lag, SliceFixer, Manzella etc...)
I have tries the RFT some in the past, I think that's why my basic and acquired motions are consistent strikes as I really feel PP#3 driving down on plane. However, my horrible over rotated pivot kills my full shot.

It is so strange, that some my best contact is like with a PW when I have say 30yds to the green. My tempo is nice and smooth, short backswing, hands ahead of the clubhead nice little divot, "pop' the ball dead straight 10 ft from the hole.

But give me that same PW from 115 and take a full swing, and I have no clue where it's going to go or what type of shape the shot will be or what type of contact I will make.

I don't want to be a reverse slot player for sure. I want to get the backswing more up and on plane and drop down to pitch elbow and come from the inside on the downswing. But I want all this to be pivot driven. I have been way too armsy in the past. I will revisit the Orr video on Warchant/Walrus, I have seen it before. Like I said I am a golf info junkie, there are not many videos or reputable sites I haven't spent time on.

The in-laws are in town tomorrow for 5 days, so I have 4 tee times lined up. Got to get something I can at least use to get the ball around and not embarrass myself.

- RFT (more on plane going back)
- Turn into right side (butt cheek goes back not lateral)
- Pivot rotation back to left, drop power package inside and hit the inside quadrant of the ball
- Keep turning left, holding the angles in the hands and just let the FLW happen by driving your pivot.
- Keep the belt buckle ahead of the hands
- Have good tempo

It's a good thing I can chip and putt as once I get on the green it's never a 3 putt, or I would be shooting 100 or worse.

Sorry the post got so long, but I hope you can tell, this is something I am really passionate about and it haunts me to no end.

thanks
Joe

[TeddyIrons]

Joe,

for what it's worth, I disagree with the analysis of the others (don't be offended guys ). It's true that you have a reverse loop, but your takeaway looks fine to me. It is marginally inside perhaps, but this is not at all an issue, IMO. I think your problem is simply the transition. The desire to hit the ball from the top, that afflicts so many of us, is causing your OTT move.

You need to learn to have quiet hands/arms and start the downswing with the lower body only, keeping your back to the target as long as possible. This is what you have to do if you want to drop the club into the slot and attack the ball more from the 4:30 line. The transition is a key move in golf and often overlooked by more trivial aspects such as backswing plane. We only have to look at the backswings of the greats to realize that the swing plane on the backswing is not all that important.

This is a big part of the ABS course that I am now on (I'm working on transition), and I think John Erickson really nails it. He's not the only one, however, to recommend these things regarding transition. Just look up Johnny Miller on youtube for his instruction on this topic.

Another really great tip in the transition is to try and get some pivot lag. The idea is that the torso rotates a lot while the arms feel like they don't move much at all. This was Sam Snead's recommendation. At the start of the downswing the torso then catches up with the arms, increasing the pressure under the left armpit. This is a very good way from avoiding the OTT move and throwaway.

Teddy.

[vjsinger]

I agree with what Greg, Jeff and Denny have said, you must start with the Backswing, BUT the most important thing to start with is the set-up. Jeff mentioned it as the reverse K set-up..I think that is where you start then work on what Denny said, and putting that right hand closer to your ear on the BS, I like that one. The club certainly has to work up more for you. Your timing will be off for a bit because you'll feel the swing is much shorter, so I'd be aware of that.

Here is a video done by Jeff on the proper way to get into the "reverse K" set-up position:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB1hZjrD_W8

[joeunc]

thanks Teddy, I am going to not go as far inside, and I hope that may help my transition. I also started yesterday trying to feel the connection in the left armpit. This helps ingrain the pivot thought to me some. The ole "big dog waves the little tail", not the tail moving on it's own thus getting an arm centric swing. Like Lag says I want that FLW to be like a vapor trail,. the last thing to come through after my pivot has kept rotating left. By getting so far inside, and watching my hands rise and go OTT on the downswing, I think that brings my club outside and depending on how much I flip and time it, I may hit it straight, left or right. It was so much easier at age 16 when I just turned and turned and knew nothing about it.

[imperfectgolfer]

Teddy,

You wrote-: "for what it's worth, I disagree with the analysis of the others (don't be offended guys ). It's true that you have a reverse loop, but your takeaway looks fine to me. It is marginally inside perhaps, but this is not at all an issue, IMO. I think your problem is simply the transition. The desire to hit the ball from the top, that afflicts so many of us, is causing your OTT move."

I am never offended if someone posts a contrary opinion - that's what a golf forum is all about (expressing and debating contrary opinions). You believe that Joe's major swing error is due to a predisposition to "hit from the top". I agree that this represents a major problem. However, I specifically believe that this OTT move is particularly common in golfers who use a reverse slot backswing action. Jim McLean stated a reverse slot swing is like a railroad worker wielding a sledgehammer. He takes the sledgehammer low-inside and then throws it over his right shoulder in a steep descent down towards the ground. It is not easy to prevent a transition to an OTT move that throws the club over the right shoulder (or right upper biceps) if the takeaway is too-inside and if the left forearm over-pronates - causing the hands to get "jammed" in a too-deep position in the mid-backswing. A reverse slot backswing golfer almost invariably lifts the arms up to the top of the backswing from that "jammed" mid-backswing position and then throws his hands OTT in his transition move.

Jeff.

[joeunc]

You might be able to see it on the vids, but I am trying to get in Rev K. have my right knee kicked in, right shoulder lower than left and some body lean, I think???

I think I need to shorten the swing, I definitely over rotate the shoulders for sure. We know the left arm really doesn't travel that far back, your pivot turns it back once it's parallel to target.

Big Thanks!!!

Mar 24, 2010 9:45:13 GMT -5 @vjsinger said:

I agree with what Greg, Jeff and Denny have said, you must start with the Backswing, BUT the most important thing to start with is the set-up. Jeff mentioned it as the reverse K set-up..I think that is where you start then work on what Denny said, and putting that right hand closer to your ear on the BS, I like that one. The club certainly has to work up more for you. Your timing will be off for a bit because you'll feel the swing is much shorter, so I'd be aware of that.

Here is a video done by Jeff on the proper way to get into the "reverse K" set-up position:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB1hZjrD_W8

[imperfectgolfer]

Joe,

I think that there is a simpler mental analogy than David Orr's "walrus/war chant" concept - and that is my "right clap hand" action, which I describe in this review paper.

perfectgolfswingreview.net/arm.htm

Here is a photo of the "right clap hand" action.



I think that it is the simplest visual method for learning how to move the right upper limb in a RFT backswing action. It is almost intuitive!

Jeff.

[joeunc]

I definitely feel like I go straight back, but then I do feel that forearm pronate and I think that is the biggest culprit to sucking it inside. I take it back and the club is still looking at the ball and them when I get to parallel I have already pronated and that's what throws it behind I think. I want to work on when the arms are parallel to target the toe is either up or maybe slightly closed and not flared open via the pronation.

thanks!!!!

Mar 24, 2010 9:48:23 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

Teddy,

You wrote-: "for what it's worth, I disagree with the analysis of the others (don't be offended guys ). It's true that you have a reverse loop, but your takeaway looks fine to me. It is marginally inside perhaps, but this is not at all an issue, IMO. I think your problem is simply the transition. The desire to hit the ball from the top, that afflicts so many of us, is causing your OTT move."

I am never offended if someone posts a contrary opinion - that's what a golf forum is all about (expressing and debating contrary opinions). You believe that Joe's major swing error is due to a predisposition to "hit from the top". I agree that this represents a major problem. However, I specifically believe that this OTT move is particularly common in golfers who use a reverse slot backswing action. Jim McLean stated a reverse slot swing is like a railroad worker wielding a sledgehammer. He takes the sledgehammer low-inside and then throws it over his right shoulder in a steep descent down towards the ground. It is not easy to prevent a transition to an OTT move that throws the club over the right shoulder (or right upper biceps) if the takeaway is too-inside and if the left forearm over-pronates - causing the hands to get "jammed" in a too-deep position in the mid-backswing. A reverse slot backswing golfer almost invariably lifts the arms up to the top of the backswing from that "jammed" mid-backswing position and then throws it OTT in his transition move.

Jeff.

[vjsinger]

Kicking the right knee in is not the same as setting the hips targetward correctly. You will feel more weight on your LEFT side at address, because right now your spine is too vertical and you have too much weight on the right side at the start. Brace the left side. Think about the left hip, knee and ankle being in a straight line at set-up. That will give you plenty of tilt at address and allow you to get your plane line more right in the DS..assuming you do what Denny and Jeff suggested with the "right forearm takeaway" action.

Best

Mar 24, 2010 9:50:30 GMT -5 joeunc said:

You might be able to see it on the vids, but I am trying to get in Rev K. have my right knee kicked in, right shoulder lower than left and some body lean, I think???

I think I need to shorten the swing, I definitely over rotate the shoulders for sure. We know the left arm really doesn't travel that far back, your pivot turns it back once it's parallel to target.

Big Thanks!!!

Mar 24, 2010 9:45:13 GMT -5 @vjsinger said:

I agree with what Greg, Jeff and Denny have said, you must start with the Backswing, BUT the most important thing to start with is the set-up. Jeff mentioned it as the reverse K set-up..I think that is where you start then work on what Denny said, and putting that right hand closer to your ear on the BS, I like that one. The club certainly has to work up more for you. Your timing will be off for a bit because you'll feel the swing is much shorter, so I'd be aware of that.

Here is a video done by Jeff on the proper way to get into the "reverse K" set-up position:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB1hZjrD_W8

[TeddyIrons]

Mar 24, 2010 9:48:23 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

Teddy,
I am never offended if someone posts a contrary opinion - that's what a golf forum is all about (expressing and debating contrary opinions). You believe that Joe's major swing error is due to a predisposition to "hit from the top". I agree that this represents a major problem. However, I specifically believe that this OTT move is particularly common in golfers who use a reverse slot backswing action. Jim McLean stated a reverse slot swing is like a railroad worker wielding a sledgehammer. He takes the sledgehammer low-inside and then throws it over his right shoulder in a steep descent down towards the ground. It is not easy to prevent a transition to an OTT move that throws the club over the right shoulder (or right upper biceps) if the takeaway is too-inside and if the left forearm over-pronates - causing the hands to get "jammed" in a too-deep position in the mid-backswing. A reverse slot backswing golfer almost invariably lifts the arms up to the top of the backswing from that "jammed" mid-backswing position and then throws his hands OTT in his transition move.

Jeff.

Jeff, I believe it's possible to come OTT from any type of backswing. It's just easier to see in a reverse loop. I think that the amount joe takes it inside is insignificant and not worthy of concern. I agree that if a golfer takes the club extremely to the inside, it will make the task of the transition that bit harder to keep the attack from the inside. However, in my opinion, even if joe were to take it less inside, his transition problems would still prevent him from the correct downswing sequencing.

Also, I think the RFT is potentially hazardous to solving these transition problems. The RFT has the arms guiding the body. If executed properly, it will certainly get the torso into a good position. However, it will be difficult to acquire some pivot lag in the backswing using the RFT, in my opinion, which could increase the difficulty of the transition. Instead, using a one piece takaway where the upper torso guides the arms, we can develop some pivot lag, which is a great help in avoiding an OTT move.

[joeunc]

I definitely don't want to fill as if the "arms are just going back" I understand the whole hands guided takeaway versus one-piece. How about something where it "feel" like I am keeping my hands in front of my chest to the point the arms are parallel. That would maybe get me a better takeaway while still getting some core turn and getting that right hip turn backwards. Does that sound feasible??

I will certainly know a lot more in less than a week. As I am playing after work today, and then 4 of the next 5 days.