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Post by begolfpro on Feb 7, 2010 17:31:05 GMT -5
Hi guys, A great forum we have here I have been spending some time reading all the posts and I have to say you guys are smart. It is good to get my daily fix on what is important here! I have TGM but it is just a heavy read for me. However, I am a feel player and just taking snippets from the book has really helped me leaps and bounds. Will I ever finish the book? I don't know but it sure is interesting Richie well done!! Now on to the subject. Brian Manzella has shown through his teaching and the use of trackman that we really need to swing LEFT when hitting down on the ball to hit a straight shot. I have been practicing and been thinking what are some really good drills to ingrain this necessary feeling. My favourite that I have been using these past few weeks is the water bottle drill used or was used by Vijay Singh. I have included a selection of videos and would love to get your opinion of my swings and also what you think of the drill. Have you used it? Do you have any other drills that would work as well? I have always been an inside-out hitter with great results but never consistent result. However, since 'discovering' on Brian Manzella's site that we have to swing left when hitting down with our irons I have improved tremendously and I am really looking forward to the new season. Hope you guys are as well ;D
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Post by pavaveda on Feb 7, 2010 23:21:54 GMT -5
Bradley, it looks like you have a very nice swing. But I'm not sure what one is supposed to get out of that bottle drill? Maybe you can explain it. If you're really worried about swinging left, then I would think that rather than having the bottle be directly outward from where the ball would be, it would be better to have it just outside your intended low-point, and maybe even ON the target line to an extent. Then you'd really have to "swing left" in order to not hit the bottle!
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 8, 2010 1:38:23 GMT -5
Bradley
I can see that you are generating an in-to-square-to-in clubhead swingpath and that you are tracing a SPL (ball-target line) in the downswing and followthrough (swinging "on-plane" from P3 to P4). In what sense are you "swinging left"? How does this swing differ from your previous swing?
Jeff.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Feb 8, 2010 10:51:37 GMT -5
You seem to be 'swinging left' properly enough to me. I'm not the biggest fan of how Manzella explains swinging left, although it was a new concept for him and it's not like there are plenty of other teachers describing 'swinging left' more clearly or describing it at all. I like Lag Erickson thinking of it as 'releasing left' from the DTL view and then NYC Lagster saying that it's basically keeping the clubhead on plane post impact.
3JACK
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 8, 2010 11:01:21 GMT -5
You seem to be 'swinging left' properly enough to me. I'm not the biggest fan of how Manzella explains swinging left, although it was a new concept for him and it's not like there are plenty of other teachers describing 'swinging left' more clearly or describing it at all. I like Lag Erickson thinking of it as 'releasing left' from the DTL view and then NYC Lagster saying that it's basically keeping the clubhead on plane post impact. 3JACK Since most good players have an inside out path which should put the baseline just out to the right, and most have forward shaft lean as they are good players....doesn't this just mean rotating the plane line to the left to compensate?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 8, 2010 11:07:13 GMT -5
Greg
I don't understand your comment.
Most golfers have an in-to-square-to-in clubhead path. The fact that the club approaches the ball from the inside doesn't mean that they will bend the baseline to the right.
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 8, 2010 11:17:48 GMT -5
Greg I don't understand your comment. Most golfers have an in-to-square-to-in clubhead path. The fact that the club approaches the ball from the inside doesn't mean that they will bend the baseline to the right. Jeff. ok, I thought that it would push it to the right, my mistake. I think the idea is the same, the more shaft lean you have the farther to the left the baseline should be right? I mean thats part of the reason Trevino had to set up so far left to hit his cut?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 8, 2010 11:31:40 GMT -5
Greg I know of no mechanical/biomechanical reason why one should shift the baseline to the left to have forward shaft lean at impact. I believe that the major determinant of the degree of forward shaft lean at impact is ball position relative to low point. I don't believe that Lee Trevino, a hitter, shifted the baseline leftwards. However, he has his clubshaft on the hand plane through impact, and the body/clubshaft has to "appear" to "swing more left" to keep the clusbhaft "on-plane" when using such a shallow clubshaft plane through the impact zone. An open stance allows one to more easily pivot leftwards post-impact when going through impact on such a shallow plane. I think that Lee Trevino's baseline is not directed to the left. However, he "appears" to be pivoting a lot to the left post-impact because his clusbhaft is on the hand plane through impact. His open stance and his open pelvis/shoulders through impact allows him to "swing left" more easily. I think that his use of angled hinging and a slightly open clubface at impact allowed him to routinely fade the ball. That's an advantage a hitter has over a swinger - it is biomechanically more natural to play a fade rather than a draw. Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 8, 2010 11:38:27 GMT -5
It really is an interesting discussion, I have to make solid contact on all my shots before I can really worry about the swinging left stuff.
I really like Trevino's swing and think it would work for many people. Open stance promotes hip rotation, hands my up rather than in which would promote not getting them stuck and looping over the top, drive the arm down towards the hip and hit a push fade. The hard part for me is hitting drivers and longer clubs but there is no doubt contact wise its the easiest way to hit the ball.
Do you know if he used a strong grip?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 8, 2010 11:44:18 GMT -5
Greg, Lee Trevino does have a strong left hand grip. I think that a golfer has to have tremendous flexibility to get the right shoulder sufficiently far enough downplane in the late downswing/followthrough using Lee Trevino's hitting action. I definitely don't have enough flexibility to keep my right wrist bent - as demonstrated by LT in image 10. Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 8, 2010 11:54:40 GMT -5
I would be interested to see his sequence from when he was older, let me see what I can find but I remember him just peppering iron shots a few years ago at Tree Tops par 3 challenge at about 230 pounds and 60 years old.
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Post by begolfpro on Feb 8, 2010 13:05:01 GMT -5
Ok looks like I have to explain myself a little better It all has to do with learning FEEL from MECHANICS. For a long time I was an in to out hitter of the ball. With the driver I would be swinging up on the ball and the results would be really good. Long drives with a good draw on the ball but the hook or push would raise it's ugly head occasionally. However, with the irons I would swing down into the ball, which as we know now starts the ball right and couple this with an in to out swing...results very inconsistent When I would try to correct this I would unfortunately do this by closing the clubface...the result you all know..hook to the left!!! I NEVER knew about swinging left. I then bought brian's NHA, yet I still struggled. The reason was that I had no definite feedback as to how far inside out I was swinging...even with the towel drill. I would miss the towel but it was still in to out and then my shots would be off the heel and sometimes even shanks So I then set out to fix the flaw in my MECHANICS i.e swinging inside out causing heel and shank shots with the bottle drill. My sole focus with this drill was to get me to stop doing the above. Now I had excellent feedback as to whether I was swinging inside out or not! Feedback, feedback, feedback! If I hit the bottle I was going to far inside out. If I just missed the bottle it would be on the sweetspot. So I was learning the swing which allowed me to miss the bottle by focusing on the MEChANICS of the swing. Then after seeing a few videos of myself I "discovered" that it looked that I was swinging LEFT after impact The ONLY way the swing could go if I missed the bottle and swung correctly was left up the plane again. WOW! I had learned the FEEL of swinging LEFT by working on the MECHANICS of fixing my heel shots I also learned that i did not have to close the clubface so much anymore. Trust me guys my swing did not look like this a few months back ;D So that is why I posted the swings and my comments. Would this be a good drill to teach someone the swinging left feeling? Is it a good drill in your opinion? For me it has been a revelation because now that I have the swing and it goes LEFT after impact I simply have to change the plane line (I hope I am using the correctly terminology) left or right of the target line to hit my desired shot. Learning FEEL from MECHANICS
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 8, 2010 13:38:48 GMT -5
Bradley, From your last post, it appears that you were not swinging on-plane between the 3rd and 4th parallels in your previous swing. You were swinging in-to-out through the impact zone. Now you are swinging on-plane (tracing a SPL) and generating an in-to-square-to-in clubhead path. It therefore gives you the "feel" of "swinging left" post-impact. You are not really "swinging left" in terms of moving the HSP leftwards, as your inclined plane base is still along the ball-target line. To hit the ball straight towards the target when hitting down, you may have had to shift the HSP leftwards. By the way, your swing is superb and equivalent to a PGA tour pro's swing. I think that the best drill for the "feel" of swinging left in the followthrough is practicing how to trace a SPL through the impact zone from the 3rd to the 4th parallels. Jeff.
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Post by mudball on Feb 8, 2010 13:39:29 GMT -5
Greg I don't believe that Lee Trevino, a hitter, shifted the baseline leftwards... I think that Lee Trevino's baseline is not directed to the left.... However, he "appears" to be pivoting a lot to the left post-impact because his clusbhaft is on the hand plane through impact. His open stance and his open pelvis/shoulders through impact allows him to "swing left" more easily. I think that his use of angled hinging and a slightly open clubface at impact allowed him to routinely fade the ball. That's an advantage a hitter has over a swinger - it is biomechanically more natural to play a fade rather than a draw. Jeff. Jeff, Is it not the case that that Trevino felt he was a 'blocker' and that he felt he swung down a line which was left of the target but his body was aligned even more left and then he held off his hands and felt as though he pushed them out down the target line.... in other words almost an in to - out swing path but aimed very far left...? Begolfpro - great swing - looking really neat and tidy. I like the bottle drill. Have you tried variations of hitting the middle of three balls? You set up with three balls on a diagonal path. the one in the middle is the one you hit... you align the diagonal line of three balls either pointing toward your left foot to learn not to OTT and right foot to avoid in to out. Dave
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 8, 2010 13:47:05 GMT -5
Dave
LT did state that he "felt" like he was was "steering" the club toward the target in the followthrough. I think that he actually kept his clubshaft "on-plane in the followthrough, but his very open pelvis/shoulders in the followthrough gave him the "feeling" of having the arms/club move more rightwards relative to his rotating torso.
Jeff.
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