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Post by Ringer on Dec 1, 2010 19:04:07 GMT -5
Ringer - you wrote-: "Although sound advice, just ignoring Jeff's posts leaves people wondering if you have an answer at all and you lose credibility." How can you lose credibility if my posts are not pertinent, and (according to Dan) merely "arguing for argument's sake"? Jeff. Really Jeff? How about this. You set up a practice where you get to be a doctor. I get to hover over you and watch you work with every patient questioning every single thing you tell them. I can use my laptop to show them all of the websites that I can find that contradict what you tell them, and I can even make up my own diagrams to argue my points. Lets see how long you stay in business because your credibility begins to waiver.
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Post by moradman on Dec 1, 2010 19:47:00 GMT -5
Its THURSDAY in England already!! That's it... I'm headin to the bar. I gotta headache....
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 1, 2010 19:49:52 GMT -5
Ringer,
There is one flaw in your argument-by-comparison. You have seemingly deprived my patients of their freedom-of-choice. My patients in your scenario should be free to choose not to listen to your opinions. Likewise, you and every other forum member should be free to choose not to read my posts. Nobody is forcing you!
Jeff.
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Post by Ringer on Dec 1, 2010 20:08:43 GMT -5
Ringer, There is one flaw in your argument-by-comparison. You have seemingly deprived my patients of their freedom-of-choice. My patients in your scenario should be free to choose not to listen to your opinions. Likewise, you and every other forum member should be free to choose not to read my posts. Nobody is forcing you! Jeff. In order to know what I'm talking about they'd have to read what you post because around half of my posts seem to be directed toward you. It's a VERY accurate comparison. But sure, nit pick one tiny little discrepancy and use that to say it proves I'm totally wrong. Don't you see Jeff. No one questions your vigilance to find the truth. We question your methods due to their consistent condemning nature of others. Only YOUR interpretation is accurate. Anyone who thinks otherwise is going to get a 1000 word essay pointing out every minor discrepancy you have with their post. Disagreement is fine, in fact I think it's good. You don't just disagree, you write seminars about how wrong people are. THAT is offensive to the people you write about.
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Post by moradman on Dec 1, 2010 20:12:00 GMT -5
That message was just in the Jeff Mann Free Zone. Can't bring that over here to continue in a Jeff Mann is ALWAYS Correct Zone.
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jamo
'88 Apex Redlines
Posts: 142
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Post by jamo on Dec 1, 2010 23:09:01 GMT -5
I haven't been a member here long, and I don't post a lot, but I do read this forum a lot, and the reason I do is to learn things, because there are a lot of very intelligent and knowledgeable people here that know what they are talking about.
My one problem with the way Jeff posts is that he will bring up a picture or a video, it'll get beaten to death, the thread will either be closed or people will get too annoyed to post in it, and then it'll go away. Then, not too long later, Jeff will again use that same video/picture to prove his point, even though most everyone else disagrees with his interpretation of the meaning of the video/picture, and the thread will blow up again.
Then nobody learns anything. And I don't say this to insult Jeff, he seems to be genuinely interested in learning about the game of golf, but that's honestly what annoys me the most. There are other things, but in the interest of not going too far, I'll end it there.
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Post by wafflegolfer on Dec 1, 2010 23:13:42 GMT -5
iteachgolf, I said I think MOST of the detractors and you apparently are not one of them. I see your point and realize that having someone interrupt your tips and ideas for others to improve their game could be extremely agitating. Perhaps Jeff would be more in line with proper forum decorum if he would address the author of the topic at least first before he questions anyone's answer. IF you or others post and differ with his answer then it it appropriate for him to respond. Otherwise why not just IGNORE his post and continue on with your help or advice for the topic author. Rand Although sound advice, just ignoring Jeff's posts leaves people wondering if you have an answer at all and you lose credibility. It also get extremely laborious to not only read the lengthy disagreements Jeff posts, but then to try and generate a reply that ultimately you KNOW is going to just get refuted again with another extremely lengthy post. The reason I post is as Iteach says, I enjoy it. I don't even mind being challenged on what I say. But when it's NEVER ending, always in the negative, and exhausting to read .... it takes any joy out of doing it. Ding Ding! You are the winner!
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 1, 2010 23:42:17 GMT -5
Ringer,
You wrote-: "In order to know what I'm talking about they'd have to read what you post because around half of my posts seem to be directed toward you."
I will repeat my previous post's point. You are not obliged to read my posts, and therefore you cannot be obliged to respond to any of my posts.
Jeff.
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Post by tightdraw on Dec 2, 2010 0:34:42 GMT -5
When I was learning how to solo on the guitar, I could never play enough notes. Then I read that Miles Davis opined that the key to music is the space between the notes; and later I learned the truly great soloists on guitar were the ones who didn't play all the notes they could play -- what made them great was the choices they made of what to play and when; and more importantly, what not to play and when. Knowing what not to play even when you can is a skill. Restraint speaks volumes: and often more clearly.
That's my word to the wise -- for what it's worth.
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Post by jonnygrouville on Dec 2, 2010 0:38:33 GMT -5
I have no ideas of my own regarding the golf swing. If I did, I would want them picked apart by as many people as possible to see if there was anything else I should consider or learn.
In my professional life, I know certain people that I can take a report or something to, knowing they will play devil’s advocate and take it to pieces. Even if they agree with what I am saying, they will stand the other side of the wall to see how I defend myself. Sometimes people don’t agree and I either have to change what I have or frankly say that we will have to have different opinions. It is good to have a bit of professional skepticism and friction!
My job also involves criticizing people. There is a way to do it and even done as sensitively as possible different people will take the news in different ways. You can even expect different responses depending on which country you are in. Some people will take it on board straight away and run off to fix it. Others will take it personally and sit there arguing that black is white for hours. There are gray areas inbetween and, again, this can end up as a matter of opinion.
I can see how Dan’s Jeff paradox must be frustrating, but I honestly believe Jeff is trying to get to the bottom of the ‘Why?’ behind peoples’ thinking. What Dan teaches works. Really well! He understands the golf swing and how to improve how people hit the golf ball. That is a fact. Can he and Jeff agree on the biomechanical advantages and minutiae of the golf swing discussing it all over the internet? No, and, to be honest, I’m not surprised!
Don't take Jeff's posts as personal slights. See them as trying to help. If you disagree, disagree! Say it is a matter of opinion, draw a line under it and move on.
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Post by rohlio on Dec 2, 2010 1:03:40 GMT -5
Although sound advice, just ignoring Jeff's posts leaves people wondering if you have an answer at all and you lose credibility. It also get extremely laborious to not only read the lengthy disagreements Jeff posts, but then to try and generate a reply that ultimately you KNOW is going to just get refuted again with another extremely lengthy post. The reason I post is as Iteach says, I enjoy it. I don't even mind being challenged on what I say. But when it's NEVER ending, always in the negative, and exhausting to read .... it takes any joy out of doing it. What a great post.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 2, 2010 11:01:52 GMT -5
Ringer stated-: "The reason I post is as Iteach says, I enjoy it. I don't even mind being challenged on what I say. But when it's NEVER ending, always in the negative, and exhausting to read .... it takes any joy out of doing it."
Rohlio stated in response-: "What a great post."
I am amazed that forum members, who post "something" about golf swing mechanics/biomechanics, lose their joy because a single forum member constantly challenges the legitimacy of some of their opinions. If they didn't read my criticism, then presumably they would still enjoy posting. Nothing prevents forum members from ignoring my posts by simply not reading them.
As Johnny has stated, I believe in endless challenges because I want to understand the "truth" regarding golf swing mechanics/biomechanics, and the "truth" becomes more apparent when an opinion has a low falsifiability quotient. I constantly challenge the legitimacy of my own personal opinions, and I do not alter my endlessly-inquiring approach when exposed to other forum members' opinions. If they do not like their opinions challenged, then they can simply avoid reading my posts.
Jeff.
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Post by wafflegolfer on Dec 2, 2010 11:34:53 GMT -5
^^still doesn't get it.
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Post by Ringer on Dec 2, 2010 13:20:14 GMT -5
Ringer stated-: "The reason I post is as Iteach says, I enjoy it. I don't even mind being challenged on what I say. But when it's NEVER ending, always in the negative, and exhausting to read .... it takes any joy out of doing it." Rohlio stated in response-: "What a great post." I am amazed that forum members, who post "something" about golf swing mechanics/biomechanics, lose their joy because a single forum member constantly challenges the legitimacy of some of their opinions. If they didn't read my criticism, then presumably they would still enjoy posting. Nothing prevents forum members from ignoring my posts by simply not reading them. As Johnny has stated, I believe in endless challenges because I want to understand the "truth" regarding golf swing mechanics/biomechanics, and the "truth" becomes more apparent when an opinion has a low falsifiability quotient. I constantly challenge the legitimacy of my own personal opinions, and I do not alter my endlessly-inquiring approach when exposed to other forum members' opinions. If they do not like their opinions challenged, then they can simply avoid reading my posts. Jeff. Tell you what Jeff, next time you want to ask me questions I get to charge you my normal rate of $80 per hr. Then you can ask all the questions you want because you're paying for it. Be sure to keep your credit card handy. I'm tired of giving away free information only to spend ridiculous amounts of my unpaid time backing it up.
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Post by pavaveda on Dec 2, 2010 13:27:05 GMT -5
^^still doesn't get it. ^^still doesn't get it.
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