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Post by jonnygrouville on Feb 22, 2010 4:12:24 GMT -5
I would agree that they are good for golf, in general. It challenges, promotes debate and is clearly very good for a lot of amateurs. Whether they are certified as true Stack And Tilt or not, a lot of teachers in Asia are using a similar (generally) 'left-sided' approach with their students.
I have always been fascinated by the choice to use photos of professionals regardless of their choice of examples (that in this case appears could have been better). Okay, a twenty year old Jack Nicklaus did it that way. Lovely. Good for him. Any chance you can show me the photo of an overweight thirty-two year old accountant who got down to scratch doing the same thing?
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johngrahamgolf
'88 Apex Redlines
3Jack Top 20 Short Game/Putting Instructor
Posts: 229
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Post by johngrahamgolf on Feb 22, 2010 7:54:15 GMT -5
John, You wrote-: "I guess this topic addresses your second point, because my intent was toward the ball. Some people may use tilt relative to the target." I try and avoid confusion regarding "spine angles" in my writing by only using the term tilt" with reference to a spine that is angled towards/away from the target, and I only use the term "bend" to refer to variable degrees of spine angle towards the ball. I think that a face-on camera view is needed to assess spinal tilt, and a DTL camera view is needed to assess spinal bend. Jeff. That's exactly my point because most SNT teachers use tilt when discussing sidebend. M & A discuss measuring sidebend at different points in the backswing by taking pics from various locations at right angle to the sternum to show how sidebend is constantly occuring in most if not all good pivots. If this was the reason for using those pics, than wouldn't it be valid?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 22, 2010 10:20:59 GMT -5
John,
What is most distinctive about the S&T swing is the biomechanical mechanisms needed to keep the upper swing center stationary throughout the backswing and downswing. In the backswing, that biomechanical mechanism involves a leftwards tilt of the spine plus some spine extension. During the downswing, a S&T golfer has to reverse the spinal tilt from a leftwards tilt to a rightwards tilt by impact by performing an assertive left-lateral pelvic slide action.
Therefore, I think that they needed to show photographs of the spinal tilt, and not the spinal bend in their presentation - to demonstrate how the S&T swing differs from the traditional/conventional swing.
Jeff.
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Post by mudball on Feb 22, 2010 10:26:10 GMT -5
I have always been fascinated by the choice to use photos of professionals regardless of their choice of examples (that in this case appears could have been better). Okay, a twenty year old Jack Nicklaus did it that way. Lovely. Good for him. Any chance you can show me the photo of an overweight thirty-two year old accountant who got down to scratch doing the same thing? Good point - well made. Although not sure it will sell too well The truth of the matter is they are running a business. They are doing this to pay their mortgage and put food on the table or whatever - its their job, their chosen career path. To be fair they have demonstrated using Joe average - although limited use of - look at the whole Golf Digest thing with the editor taking lessons and writing articles about it. I guess they felt using these professional golfers would illustrate the point and help sell the concepts to the customer better. There are by the way lot's of personal blogs out there you can follow of people who are less gifted shall we say who have either succeeded in reducing their handicap or are in the process of trying to - if you'd prefer to read their thoughts... I can send links if you wish
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 22, 2010 10:26:52 GMT -5
Jonny, You wrote-: "Okay, a twenty year old Jack Nicklaus did it that way. Lovely. Good for him. Any chance you can show me the photo of an overweight thirty-two year old accountant who got down to scratch doing the same thing?" I suspect that the overweight golfer, who is a scratch golfer, would more likely be using a rightwards-centered backswing action (photo B) and not a leftwards-centered backswing action (photo C). Jeff.
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johngrahamgolf
'88 Apex Redlines
3Jack Top 20 Short Game/Putting Instructor
Posts: 229
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Post by johngrahamgolf on Feb 22, 2010 10:41:20 GMT -5
John, What is most distinctive about the S&T swing is the biomechanical mechanisms needed to keep the upper swing center stationary throughout the backswing and downswing. In the backswing, that biomechanical mechanism involves a leftwards tilt of the spine plus some spine extension. During the downswing, a S&T golfer has to reverse the spinal tilt from a leftwards tilt to a rightwards tilt by impact by performing an assertive left-lateral pelvic slide action. Therefore, I think that they needed to show photographs of the spinal tilt, and not the spinal bend in their presentation - to demonstrate how the S&T swing differs from the traditional/conventional swing. Jeff. I don't know so I need to ask. Is the leftward tilt, as you have defined it earlier, been verified by 3d machine. As I look at picture C in one of your below posts, based on the spines location at the back of the body, to me, that does not look like a left tilting spine. I looks straight up and down. John
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Post by mudball on Feb 22, 2010 10:41:43 GMT -5
Jonny, You wrote-: "Okay, a twenty year old Jack Nicklaus did it that way. Lovely. Good for him. Any chance you can show me the photo of an overweight thirty-two year old accountant who got down to scratch doing the same thing?" I suspect that the overweight golfer, who is a scratch golfer, would more likely be using a rightwards-centered backswing action (photo B) and not a leftwards-centered backswing action (photo C). Jeff. Jeff, Well here is the main thrust of their argument I believe: Swing B... it aint working because not too many of us are off scratch or even breaking 80 regularly.Their point is there are key fundamentals and those fundamentals are not grip, aim, stance, blah blah blah. They think if you adopt their fundamentals then there would be more players shooting lower scores. We know that method B is not working - How? because the average scores of the golfing public are not improving significantly over time. So I would argue that you are incorrect to say ther reason why the scratch golfer is using swing B is the reason they are off scratch. The key is progress - if you are making progress using Swing B then good. If you are happy with the level of that progress great. If not then you have three choices a) reset expectations b) continue tweaking and trial and error c) try something different. But swing B is not working Jeff not for the masses. I can prove it - any weekend any golf course any country - there are plenty of examples. Unfortunately...
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 22, 2010 10:52:01 GMT -5
Dave, Good post, thats why I like the stack and tilt system, it offers golfers another way of doing it. Watching some before and afters from Dan Carahan on youtube it sure looks like his clients get much better alignments with the changes. For the record, arnt most really good players in between B and C, its like a photo is missing.
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Post by mudball on Feb 22, 2010 10:59:02 GMT -5
I don't know so I need to ask. Is the leftward tilt, as you have defined it earlier, been verified by 3d machine. As I look at picture C in one of your below posts, based on the spines location at the back of the body, to me, that does not look like a left tilting spine. I looks straight up and down. John Well spotted Mr Graham - I refer to page 59 of their book where they have a little snippet from Charlie Wi on Spine Tilt and how it feels... He says "the feeling is the spine tilts toward the target. In reality the spine stays vertical (from the face-on view)". He then goes on to say "but, if you're used to tilting away from the target, as I was (Charlie Wi) this image should help you. Feelings and images...
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Post by mudball on Feb 22, 2010 11:09:45 GMT -5
Dave, For the record, arnt most really good players in between B and C, its like a photo is missing. Yes I think there is truth in this. I think the actual position of the spine and how the golfer appears differs for many factors - including body shape etc. As per my reply to John Graham above - Charlie Wi says it's a feeling of spine tilts toward target but in fact is vertical (from a face on view). I know from analyzing my own swing that I am not staying perfectly centered - I am more centered than my old swing - but it's going through a transitional phase - I can't say for certainty at this stage where it will end up. It feels as if I tilt left a bit. But I can see from video my center moves back very slightly.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 22, 2010 11:15:39 GMT -5
John, You are making the common cardinal mistake when you look at the S&T golfer and note that his upper swing center is stacked over the lower swing center, and therefore conclude that the spine is vertical. B/P address this specific issue in their book and they use the following photo-diagram. Image 1 shows a S&T golfer at address. To get the "correct" feeling involved in performing a S&T backswing pivot action, Bennett/Plummer state that a golfer should stand erect and extend the spine (image 2), then tilt the extended spine 30 degrees to the left (image 3) and then bend forward at the waist by rotating their shoulders until they reach the "stacked" appearance (image 4). Image 4 represents the end-backswing position, and to acquire that end-backswing S&T posture (where the upper swing center remains stationary relative to its address location), Bennett/Plummer state that a S&T golfer should also straighten the right leg. If the right leg straightens, it lifts up the right side of the pelvis by a few inches, and that makes it biomechanically easier to extend/tilt the spine to the left - as seen in image 4. This right leg straightening maneuver also prevents any weight shift to the right during the backswing. The key point that you need to understand is that image 4 (stacked posture) incorporates a 30 degree leftwards spinal tilt - even if the golfer actually appears to only be slightly left-centralised (photo C in the previous series of photos). Traditional/conventional golfers use a rightwards-centered backswing action (photo B) because it is biomechanically natural. If the average golfer has a high handicap. it is not because of the rightwards-centered backswing swing style action - it is due to a whole multiplicity of swing faults, which need correction. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 22, 2010 11:20:57 GMT -5
Greg, Tiger Woods has the traditional rightwards-centered backswing swing style. Note that his upper torso has a small degree of rightwards tilt at the end-backswing position - image 2. Only a small percentage of professional golfers (eg. Sean O Hair) are intermediate between photo B and photo C. Jeff.
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Post by mudball on Feb 22, 2010 11:27:57 GMT -5
Jeff - you said that ... Traditional/conventional golfers use a rightwards-centered backswing action (photo B) because it is biomechanically natural. If the average golfer has a high handicap. it is not because of the rightwards-centered backswing swing style action - it is due to a whole multiplicity of swing faults, which need correction. Jeff. I agree that there is more to golf than the moving (or keeping a stationary) centre. But according to Plummer and Bennett it is a contributory factor. They feel this shifting to the right and then back again complicates the swing and adds in a need to time an extra movement correctly. They feel staying over a centre and swinging in a more circular motion is simpler and will over time cause more players to hit the ball at the bottom of the swing and with a consistent point of contact ball/then ground. Whereas the shifting to the right (they feel) tends to cause fat shots and out to in swings amongst other problems. I appreciate I've had more than my fair share in this fantastic and interesting discussion... but I really do need to get on with my work Otherwise my bosses will sack me and I will end up with no job and have to play golf all day instead. ... hang on a minute
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 22, 2010 11:37:03 GMT -5
Dave, I agree that a golfer should not shift/sway to the right in the backswing. A golfer should simply rotate his upper torso around his rightwards-centered spine with no shift - like Tiger Woods. A rightwards-centered backswing swing style action is a "pure" rotary motion and it involves no swaying of the upper torso to the right. There is minimal movement of the upper swing center in a rightwards-centered backswing swing action. Jeff.
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Post by mudball on Feb 22, 2010 12:03:00 GMT -5
There is minimal movement of the upper swing center in a rightwards-centered backswing swing action. Hi Jeff I was with you until 'rightwards-centered backswing swing action'Then I got confused about something being rightward and also being centered. This seems to be a new concept we are drawing out here to this discussion - although I'm sensing/thinking ahead to how this might develop around coiling round/into your right hip - is this a Ballardesque pivot you are explaining? 'Ballardesque pivot' I think I sound like a dance instructor - I could get a job on Come Dancing...
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