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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 22, 2010 12:14:37 GMT -5
The key point that you need to understand is that image 4 (stacked posture) incorporates a 30 degree leftwards spinal tilt - even if the golfer actually appears to only be slightly left-centralised (photo C in the previous series of photos).
Traditional/conventional golfers use a rightwards-centered backswing action (photo B) because it is biomechanically natural.
Jeff,
I am confused as usual. Don't all golfers have some leftward bend in the golf swing as demonstrated by Plumber. If Tiger were to stand up straight, he surely has to tilt to the left or his right shoulder would be lower than his left at the top of the backswing. I just think Plumber say they want much more than normal thus creating the stacked position.
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johngrahamgolf
'88 Apex Redlines
3Jack Top 20 Short Game/Putting Instructor
Posts: 229
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Post by johngrahamgolf on Feb 22, 2010 12:21:56 GMT -5
John, You are making the common cardinal mistake when you look at the S&T golfer and note that his upper swing center is stacked over the lower swing center, and therefore conclude that the spine is vertical. B/P address this specific issue in their book and they use the following photo-diagram. Image 1 shows a S&T golfer at address. To get the "correct" feeling involved in performing a S&T backswing pivot action, Bennett/Plummer state that a golfer should stand erect and extend the spine (image 2), then tilt the extended spine 30 degrees to the left (image 3) and then bend forward at the waist by rotating their shoulders until they reach the "stacked" appearance (image 4). Image 4 represents the end-backswing position, and to acquire that end-backswing S&T posture (where the upper swing center remains stationary relative to its address location), Bennett/Plummer state that a S&T golfer should also straighten the right leg. If the right leg straightens, it lifts up the right side of the pelvis by a few inches, and that makes it biomechanically easier to extend/tilt the spine to the left - as seen in image 4. This right leg straightening maneuver also prevents any weight shift to the right during the backswing. The key point that you need to understand is that image 4 (stacked posture) incorporates a 30 degree leftwards spinal tilt - even if the golfer actually appears to only be slightly left-centralised (photo C in the previous series of photos). Traditional/conventional golfers use a rightwards-centered backswing action (photo B) because it is biomechanically natural. If the average golfer has a high handicap. it is not because of the rightwards-centered backswing swing style action - it is due to a whole multiplicity of swing faults, which need correction. Jeff. Jeff, I have a few questions. Based on the above pics it is clear that the spine is tilted toward the ball 30 degrees at the top of the backswing position. My question is, if I do the reverse; stand erect, tilt my spine to the right then rotate my shoulders to finish the backswing will I end up with a right leaning top of the backswing position? I'm sure you can see that it would not be anything like a backswing. I believe the assertion that the spine is tilting right is severly flawed. With this being the case, do you feel that a rightward leaning spine at the top of the backswing is simply a swing with less extension in the spine. It may or may not have 30 degrees of left spine tilt but the spine has not extended as much. Whatever my forward inclination at address should be matched by the same amount of side bend to the left to maintain the same "spine angle" when looked at from DTL. The amount of extension is what determines the look of right or left leaning when looked at from Face on, Don't you agree?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 22, 2010 12:52:04 GMT -5
John, You are talking about 30 degrees of spinal bend towards the ball, not tilt towards the target. The degree of tilt is not "visually apparent" in the face-on view because it is incorporated into the spinal extension movement that helps to allow the upper swing center to remain stationary during the backswing. If one performed that same backswing maneuver, but tilted 30 degrees to the right before bending forward at the hips, then one would end up with far too much rightwards spinal tilt. The head would move over the right knee and one would end up looking like Brian performing this crossing guard maneuver. However, if one adopted a 6 degrees rightwards spinal tilt at address, and simply rotated around that spinal tilt, then there would be very little shift of the upper swing center to the right. At address, Tiger has very little rightwards spinal tilt. Note that he simply rotates around his spine in the backswing without any swaying, and the degree of spinal tilt doesn't change. He doesn't extend his spine during his backswing action, but the unchanging degree of extension is not responsible for the difference between his backswing and a S&T backswing. In a traditional swing, the spine rotates naturally so that the entire spine has a rightwards tilt. See Brian "playing a piano" in this "perfect pivot" lesson. www.brianmanzella.com/forum/golfing-discussions/3675-perfect-pivot-part-1-backswing.htmlIn a S&T swing, the golfer incorporates leftwards-tilt in his backswing action, so that the piano hands move to the right of the original spinal position (image 3). Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 22, 2010 13:04:00 GMT -5
Greg,
You wrote-: "I am confused as usual. Don't all golfers have some leftward bend in the golf swing as demonstrated by Plumber. If Tiger were to stand up straight, he surely has to tilt to the left or his right shoulder would be lower than his left at the top of the backswing."
I don't understand your argument. Are you talking about spinal bend (toward the ball) or spinal tilt (toward the target)?
Try a simple experiment. Adopt a traditional posture - with a rightwards tilted spine of ~6 degrees. That will cause your right shoulder to be lower than the left shoulder at address. Now, simply rotate your shoulders perpendicularly around your rightwards-tilted spine to the end-backswing position - without altering your degree of spinal tilt. Your right shoulder should be slightly higher than the left shoulder at the end-backswing position. See the photos of Tiger Woods in my previous post to John - note that the right shoulder gets higher than the left shoulder by the end of the backswing (even though the shoulder turn angle is relatively horizontal). The amount that the right shoulder would get higher would be more if a golfer has a greater degree of spinal bend (eg. 35 degrees rather than 28 degrees) at address.
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 22, 2010 13:30:09 GMT -5
I think the 30 degrees tilt left and your 6 degrees tilt right are not one in the same once the finished backswing is completed. When finished SnT says you should in theory have a stacked spine so that would be 0 degrees? You say Tiger would be 6 degrees right at the top of the swing...so this difference is rather small is it not?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 22, 2010 13:54:15 GMT -5
Greg, The difference is small between a rightwards-centered and a leftwards-centered backswing action - in terms of the "apparent" spinal tilt at the end of the backswing. Here is Tiger Woods - as seen from above. Here is Mike Bennett (or is it Andy Plummer) - as seen from above-behind. However, can you see how Tiger is primarily balanced/weighted over a point that is just inside his right foot, while Mike Bennett is primarily balanced/weighted over his left leg. As an aside - note that there is no "space" under a S&T golfer's right shoulder for the right elbow to "slot into" during the early/mid downswing. That "space" has to be created by an assertive left-lateral pelvic slide motion in the downswing. Jeff.
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johngrahamgolf
'88 Apex Redlines
3Jack Top 20 Short Game/Putting Instructor
Posts: 229
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Post by johngrahamgolf on Feb 22, 2010 14:35:29 GMT -5
John, You are talking about 30 degrees of spinal bend towards the ball, not tilt towards the target. The degree of tilt is not "visually apparent" in the face-on view because it is incorporated into the spinal extension movement that helps to allow the upper swing center to remain stationary during the backswing. If one performed that same backswing maneuver, but tilted 30 degrees to the right before bending forward at the hips, then one would end up with far too much rightwards spinal tilt. The head would move over the right knee and one would end up looking like Brian performing this crossing guard maneuver. However, if one adopted a 6 degrees rightwards spinal tilt at address, and simply rotated around that spinal tilt, then there would be very little shift of the upper swing center to the right. At address, Tiger has very little rightwards spinal tilt. Note that he simply rotates around his spine in the backswing without any swaying, and the degree of spinal tilt doesn't change. He doesn't extend his spine during his backswing action, but the unchanging degree of extension is not responsible for the difference between his backswing and a S&T backswing. In a traditional swing, the spine rotates naturally so that the entire spine has a rightwards tilt. See Brian "playing a piano" in this "perfect pivot" lesson. www.brianmanzella.com/forum/golfing-discussions/3675-perfect-pivot-part-1-backswing.htmlIn a S&T swing, the golfer incorporates leftwards-tilt in his backswing action, so that the piano hands move to the right of the original spinal position (image 3). Jeff. Jeff, Here's your quote "The key point that you need to understand is that image 4 (stacked posture) incorporates a 30 degree leftwards spinal tilt - even if the golfer actually appears to only be slightly left-centralised (photo C in the previous series of photos)." There is no way, that picture(image 4) has 30 degrees spinal tilt toward the target. This was originally a discussion about the use of pictures and not about a justification of the method. If those pictures are being used to represent spinal tilt toward the ball would they accurate and useable? John
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johngrahamgolf
'88 Apex Redlines
3Jack Top 20 Short Game/Putting Instructor
Posts: 229
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Post by johngrahamgolf on Feb 22, 2010 14:36:18 GMT -5
BTW-This is fun for me so I hope this isn't getting too serious. =)
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 22, 2010 15:07:30 GMT -5
BTW-This is fun for me so I hope this is getting too serious. =) Not for me! I was looking at some behind photo's, I think Manzella over did his posed picture, of you look back a page at Tiger he looks very stacked to me, shaded to the right but dang at ain't much IMO. I think the right arm pinned like Jeff points out is another subject and one of the things I found hard to do combined with a flat arm path with the SnT swing. I wonder what happens to the stack and tilt swing if you keep a stacked center, but a hand and arm path like Jack Nicklaus.....push fade?
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johngrahamgolf
'88 Apex Redlines
3Jack Top 20 Short Game/Putting Instructor
Posts: 229
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Post by johngrahamgolf on Feb 22, 2010 15:22:17 GMT -5
BTW-This is fun for me so I hope this is getting too serious. =) Not for me! I was looking at some behind photo's, I think Manzella over did his posed picture, of you look back a page at Tiger he looks very stacked to me, shaded to the right but dang at ain't much IMO. I think the right arm pinned like Jeff points out is another subject and one of the things I found hard to do combined with a flat arm path with the SnT swing. I wonder what happens to the stack and tilt swing if you keep a stacked center, but a hand and arm path like Jack Nicklaus.....push fade? Just guessing, but I'd be willing to bet if Tiger had his weight 60-40 left vs right he'd look pretty darned stack. Thoughts? The hand path is a whole other issue. Just talking about centers.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 22, 2010 16:35:13 GMT -5
John, You wrote-: "Just guessing, but I'd be willing to bet if Tiger had his weight 60-40 left vs right he'd look pretty darned stack." I disagree. Consider VJ Trolio's backswing action - he gets >70% of his weight over to the left side by the end of his backswing, but he doesn't look stacked (because he uses a rightwards-centralised backswing swing-action despite shifting his lower body's weight to the left). www.youtube.com/watch?v=cov8R5Axt4kAt the end of the video, you get a back-view of VJ Trolio at the end-backswing position. Although he is leaning over his left foot (due to the fact that he has shifted his pelvis to the left in the late backswing) he has rightwards spinal tilt. That's a major difference to the S&T swing. That allows him to perform a downswing action without having to reverse his spinal tilt. Image 4 shows his end-backswing position - note his rightwards-tilted spine. Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 22, 2010 16:45:42 GMT -5
I am not sure if there is any behind views of say Mike Bennett but I would love to compare image 5 and 6 with them. I care about that much more than I care about the actual tilt of the spine on the backswing, though I do realize its the basis of just about all SnT discussion.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 22, 2010 16:50:23 GMT -5
John,
You wrote-:
"Here's your quote "The key point that you need to understand is that image 4 (stacked posture) incorporates a 30 degree leftwards spinal tilt - even if the golfer actually appears to only be slightly left-centralised (photo C in the previous series of photos)."
There is no way, that picture(image 4) has 30 degrees spinal tilt toward the target."
I didn't originate the statement that a golfer needs to adopt a 30 degrees leftwards-tilt to get to that final end-backswing position (where the torso appears to be vertically stacked). Bennett/Plummer made that claim in their book. If you don't believe them, try and get into that end-backswing position (image 4) without performing that preliminary 30 degrees leftwards-tilt motion. I have tried - and I cannot get into their recommended end-backswing S&T posture without incorporating that leftwards tilt in the action.
When I state that there is a 30 degrees spinal tilt incorporated into the backswing action, that doesn't mean that the spine "appears" to be tilted that amount to the left at the end of the backswing (from a face-on view). The leftwards spinal tilt "disappears" as you move the pelvis, and therefore the lower lumbar spine, to the left during the backswing pelvic action (where the right buttocks moves leftwards and simultaneously back to the tush line) - so that one can get to be vertically-stacked by the end-backswing.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 22, 2010 17:00:45 GMT -5
Greg,
I don't have any back views of MB's downswing action.
What do you expect to see differently - compared to VJ Trolio's images 5 & 6?
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 22, 2010 17:12:06 GMT -5
Greg, I don't have any back views of MB's downswing action. What do you expect to see differently - compared to VJ Trolio's images 5 & 6? Jeff. I just wanted to see if got the two very different approaches to COG transfer withing a golf swing in the same position to hit the ball.
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