My try at duplicating the Ben Hogan Swing

[cloran]

"Also, Im not trying to become a better golfer. However, If I am able to get to my goal, I think that indirectly, my golf game and ballstriking will improve, but where the ball goes, and how it's contacted is not a concern. Only Hogan mechanics."

Hogan himself said that no one should try to copy his swing... But he was talking about golfers that were trying to get better, score lower, etc.

I don't think you'll come across ANYONE on here that has tried to mimic a particular move Hogan performed, just for the sake of copying it. What's the point in that?

What is your ultimate goal in all of this? If you end up looking EXACTLY like Ben Hogan on video but can't break 90 you'd be happy?

You'll probably get better feedback from an acting forum, or at golfwrx... lots of actors over there.

[otto6457]

cloran

Why does golf improvement need to be about score?

Why does your view of golf and goals have to be the forum standard?

Why can't you just ignore this thread if it offends your sensibilities to such an extent?

I'm beginning to believe that there are some folks in this forum just as narrow minded as the other forums some of you folks like to bash

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Dec 10, 2011 20:09:53 GMT -5 jeffy said:

greg-

Brian told me in one of his calls that he really doesn't like it when forum members post their swings looking for advice, and his instructors get annoyed when other forum members offer advice: that's what they (the instructors) are supposed to be getting paid to do. He said there will be a lot of changes in the New Year and no more forum member swing threads will be one of them.

Jeff

Yep. Of course I was not excited about getting the thread deleted because I was looking for feedback about Hogan, but I completely understand the reasoning. I have lots of respect for Brian.

[golfdad]

Hello Hoganproject, great effort!

I wonder if you can expand a bit more on your ball flight features as you become better and better imitating his form. Are there some interesting findings or discoveries? I am not clear if you start out to emulate his form exactly or you have some other goals.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Dec 10, 2011 20:18:09 GMT -5 cloran said:

"Also, Im not trying to become a better golfer. However, If I am able to get to my goal, I think that indirectly, my golf game and ballstriking will improve, but where the ball goes, and how it's contacted is not a concern. Only Hogan mechanics."

Hogan himself said that no one should try to copy his swing... But he was talking about golfers that were trying to get better, score lower, etc.

I don't think you'll come across ANYONE on here that has tried to mimic a particular move Hogan performed, just for the sake of copying it. What's the point in that?

What is your ultimate goal in all of this? If you end up looking EXACTLY like Ben Hogan on video but can't break 90 you'd be happy?

You'll probably get better feedback from an acting forum, or at golfwrx... lots of actors over there.

I am not one to listen to what "Hogan says." I have found MANY golfers that have read the book, and have tried their best to mimic what thay have read or heard in the book. They've tried to copy it because Hogan was known as one of the best ball-strikers around, and that they've "heard" that 5 lessons is the greatest fundamental golf book ever. Their attempt at "mimicking" the book was to improve their game. The part you don't get is that mimic towards game improvement is the same as mimic towards aesthetics. If you focus on the aesthetic, the game improvement is automatic.

You hit my ultimate goal right on the head!! I want to play from the white tees and shoot in the 90's. I would prefer low 90's. But this must be done with a Hogan swing. If I happen to shoot a 78, and the swing looks nothing like Hogans, I have failed.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Cloran,

My swing experiment is not about trying to be the best ball striker that I can. Only to see how
close I can come to duplicating the Hogan swing.

Trust me, I have done enough discussion and heard enough points of view about what I am trying to accomplish, and I think I am starting to undrstand the confusion. Many say that it is possible for me to duplicate the swing, but i will never touch Hogan's dynamics.

Here's what I think people are trying to say regarding the dynamics piece:

Hogan gets up to the 1st tee, does his signature swing and hits a 3-wood. Goes 210yds with a piercing, resounding blow that echoes throught the course. Flight of ball is a 5-10 yd power fade. Ball explodes off the tee. Sounds like "BOOM..POW..BAM..CRUSH..BLAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" If NASA engineers were there, they would have measured the impact/velocity/force as off the chart, and in amazement would quickly call scientist from around the globe to research and anaylze this in-human ability.

I get up to the 1st tee, and do an exact duplicate of Hogan's signature swing with my 3-wood. Goes185yds with a semi-piercing, much less resounding blow, that can only echo within the next fairway. Ball doesn't really explode off the tee, but does have some pop. Flight of ball is a 10-20 yd draw. If NASA engineers were there, they would have measured the impact/velocity/force as bottom-to-middle of the chart, and wouldn't call anyone.

For me, I have succeded with the project, as my only goal is to duplicate the signature swing.
For you, I haven't duplicated squat because ball doesn't do the same thing, or fly the same, or sound the same, and forces are different.............

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Dec 11, 2011 10:25:50 GMT -5 golfdad said:

Hello Hoganproject, great effort!

I wonder if you can expand a bit more on your ball flight features as you become better and better imitating his form. Are there some interesting findings or discoveries? I am not clear if you start out to emulate his form exactly or you have some other goals.

Thanks! Someone else pointed that out to me too. That I should have gone to some sort of trackman or PGA store swing analysis so I could see the change in swing data from beginning to end of project. My last time on the course was in October. I am stuck in my basement until March 2012 to work on just the mechanics, with no care for ball flight or contact. One of my course issues is worrying how the ball is flying, and trajectory, and flight path. If I just focus on the stinking things that happen right before impact, I would be making more progress.

I'll see about getting to a PGA store or Golfsmith swing booth.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Myusual routine.

1. Set the computer up in DTL view.
2. Turn on the 100 degree spotlight that probably gives the neighbors the impression that I am lighting a nuclear reactor.
3. Press record on the computer.
4. Walk over and get into the address position. Hold it for a few seconds.
5. Go back to the computer. Stop recording. Draw a plane line from the hozel of the club, straight through my back.
6. Press record again.
7. Walk back over and get into address position, but this time, perform the full takeaway/upswing in concentration-drill tempo. Do this movement 5-6 times. Then do same movement in real body speed.
8. Go back to the computer. Stop recording. Run the video back of the concentration drill and watch as the club begins its climb.
9. Is club on the plane line? Yell "YES!!"
10. Is my right forearm in position? Yell "YES!!"
11. Is my right hand/wrist in position? Yell "YES!!"
12. Is my left shoulder nice and flat? Yell "YES!!"
13. Is my left shoulder still flat? Yell "YES!!"
14. When hands get to lower back, is club still on plane line? Yell "YES!!"
15. Is right leg starting to become a giant kickstand? Yell "YES!!"
16. Is left knee tired of playing hide-n-seek....now poking out pointing towards the target line? Yell "YES!!"
17. Watch my wife walk through the basement door, and over to the washer and dryer. As she walks back towards the door with a basket of clean clothes, she says "Ummmmmm, who are you yelling 'yes' to down here?" I say "the takaway concentration drill is getting close!! Couple more weeks!!" She gives me the blank stare again, and walks upstairs, cosing the door behind her. Then she opens the door, sticks her head through, and says "You know, there are medically supervised facilities for people like you," then closes the door again lol.
18. As video frames are forwarded, is club maintaing its glued-to-the-line relationship? Yell "YES!!"
19. Once club gets to the top, is left wrist in correct position, and right leg kickstand loaded? Am I in a position to spring the motherbluffing spit out of the shaft! Yell "YES!!"
20. Say to myself, "ok concentration drill mastered. All positions are acceptable. Looks close to Hogan!"
21. Now fast-forward to the part of the recording where I did the real speed movement.
22. Do same frame-by-frame analysis.
23. Watch as club remains glued to plane line, and wrists do exactly what they are supposed to, and legs/knees cooperate.
24. Then withing a half-a-second, watch as everything gets off plane and all positions get out of whack.
25. Cuss
26. Scratch my head and wonder "I can do it in concentration speed, but WHEN THE HECK WILL I BE ABLE TO DO IT AT REGULAR SPEED!?"
27. Go back to step #7 and repeat everything a few times, then get tired of cussing, and forget about the takeaway all together, and just start hitting balls, like I promised myself I would not do lol.

Repeat this daily for the next 20 years!

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

This guy Richard Elliot does a few golfer imitations. He does Colin Montgomerie very well. He's just having fun mimiking it with it for the camera and while at seminars/clinics. Anyone that has followed the European tour when Monte was hot may have an idea of how Monte swings and his signature moves. The preshot routine, setup, and swing that Richard Elliot does looks veeeeeeery close. I've never analyzed Elliot vs Montgomerie, but even before I even had to do that, I could easily recognize who he is imitating.

What's his ball flight? I have no idea and no care.

Will he join the European Tour since he's able to mimick Monte's swing? Probably not, but he could easily join European Tour clinics and pro/ams.

If he shows up to a driving range, and does his full Monte imitation, will anyone recognize it as the swing of Colin Montgomery? Yep

I wonder why no on thinks the same cannot be done with Hogan? Maybe when someone is at the top of his sport and is thought to be an icon/legend, they cannot be touched........just a thought.





The most interesting part of this mimicry: I do understand that most people see this as a "side show" or "comic act." The video of Richard Elliot doing the impression of, or mocking Monty may appear to you that he is doing this in a joking manner, and he may well be, but have you actually done a complete analysis/comparison of the two swings? I did. P1 thru P10; they are spot on.

I think that for some people, when they see mimicry, it somehow tells them that what they are doing can't be serious....it must all be a joke. This is probably true, but you have to have a strong enough mind to see beyond the joke, and focus on the physics.

[kamandi]

Ben Hogan Swing Project, the good thing about your approach of analyzing the videos of Hogan and trying to his the same positions is that you won't be cluttered with other people's interpretations of what Hogan was doing or trying to do. What will hinder you, though, is the quality and the angles of the videos you're studying. The other thing that's tough to see on video are the forces, and where they come from.

Are you using vintage irons bent flat with heavy stiff shafts? You should ask cloran about that stuff.

[kamandi]

Another thing you can try ....

In front of you, have something reflective, either a big, wide mirror, or maybe you're in front of a glass sliding door ... anything so that you can see your full body, face on.

Buy these plastic golf balls with holes, so you don't do damage to anything or anyone, and put them on a mat.

Instead of looking at the golf ball, look at your reflection as you swing an iron, to see if you're hitting the positions you want. You can go slowly or faster. Don't worry about whether you hit the plastic ball or not. What will happen, though, is your body will start to adjust and instinctively find the plastic golf ball, and you'll get a better understanding of some positions more.

Also, with this approach, you can focus on looking at specific parts of your body as you swing, to see if it's doing what you want it to do.

Don't know if that will work for you, but you can try it.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Dec 11, 2011 12:26:11 GMT -5 kamandi said:

Another thing you can try ....

In front of you, have something reflective, either a big, wide mirror, or maybe you're in front of a glass sliding door ... anything so that you can see your full body, face on.

Buy these plastic golf balls with holes, so you don't do damage to anything or anyone, and put them on a mat.

Instead of looking at the golf ball, look at your reflection as you swing an iron, to see if you're hitting the positions you want. You can go slowly or faster. Don't worry about whether you hit the plastic ball or not. What will happen, though, is your body will start to adjust and instinctively find the plastic golf ball, and you'll get a better understanding of some positions more.

Also, with this approach, you can focus on looking at specific parts of your body as you swing, to see if it's doing what you want it to do.

Don't know if that will work for you, but you can try it.

Thanks. I've built a homemade hitting wall from PVC pipe. I got a large canvas sheet from home depot. My tee box is made of 3/4" plywood with a rectangular cutout for the green hitting mat. When I do hit balls, they are real.

I use V1 home software and make all my recordings with PC webcam or iPhone. I do have the FO mirror in place.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Dec 11, 2011 12:09:10 GMT -5 kamandi said:

Ben Hogan Swing Project, the good thing about your approach of analyzing the videos of Hogan and trying to his the same positions is that you won't be cluttered with other people's interpretations of what Hogan was doing or trying to do. What will hinder you, though, is the quality and the angles of the videos you're studying. The other thing that's tough to see on video are the forces, and where they come from.

Are you using vintage irons bent flat with heavy stiff shafts? You should ask cloran about that stuff.

Yep, the video resolution is definitely an issue. But I'll have to use what I have access to. People's interpretations do sometimes cloud things, but I do need their input, because I recently discovered a few things that I didn't see. The cloudy part is when people say "how" hogan is doing them, because no one knows. Statements like "as you can see in the hogan video, he is clearly suppinating the left wrist to come into impact in a bowed position."

I agree with the description of the appearance of supination, but I don't yet agree about "how" it happens. Just don't have enough info yet.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Dec 11, 2011 0:01:35 GMT -5 otto6457 said:

cloran

Why does golf improvement need to be about score?

You know, this is an excellent question. One of my playing partners has a terrible temper when he hits a bad shot. I also notice some of these same tendencies when we're not on the course. Hes fine around his family, but when we go out, hes snappy with waitresses for some reason. What if he made a goal of reducing how he overreacted on the course? Without any care of where the ball went. He might just understand how to make change off the course too.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Alright, getting ready to post my journal so you can see all my sucky swings and lack of progress. Gonna put it in a few different posts cause I don't know how much text one single post will handle.