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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Jan 1, 2012 20:31:48 GMT -5
I'm just an old guy who played the tour for a year in the 1970's. I played and didn't study other people's swings for decades in detail like many people here. I'm not as smart or perceptive as some of the teachers here. However, Hogan's swung the way he did in order to have the ball flight he wanted. We all do, or did. I think club setup is more important than you think it is. I don't swing like Hogan. I did see Hogan swing a few times in the early 70's and I remember his swing as being much faster than anything I've ever seen on YouTube these days. I don't know why that would be. I don't think Hogan could hit a standard club of today with the same swing. His hands would have to raise at impact or the heel of the club would dig a trench in the ground. The club would feel so light that he would have to manipulate his wrists to maintain his signature hinge (lag), where his own heavy clubs helped maintain the hinge. The momentum of the heavy club probably helped him set and hold better. I think he'd have to adjust his speed on the takeaway and that would significantly affect his timing. He had a wire coat hanger under the bottom of the grip as a remainder. Modern clubs can only have a 1mm rib. That's not a big thing, but it would change the feeling of grip pressure if it wasn't there. Those are just off the top of my head. I'm sure others have better ideas. However, I can't see any way his swing plane on the downswing would ever work with a club that wasn't maybe 4-5 degrees flatter than standard. The only way to really know is to make a club 4-5 degrees flatter, about E-5 swing weight with a heavy X-100 shaft and see. You'll have to move muscles in a sequence that may feel very different to you in order to hit the ball at all. That would be a good thing, if you want to mimic his swing...  Wow! Cool post and good info. Thank you Sir. I'll be moving towards the E-5 and 4-5 flat and X-100 soon. The coat hanger.....I'll be doing that too! Man, I'd love to hear some of your 1970's tour stories. Glad to be talking to ya. |
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Jan 1, 2012 21:27:29 GMT -5
And speaking of tours, I caddied for a coworker that plays on the Golf Channel AM tour in the Palmer flight. Was incredible seeing guys hit shaped shots. And that was my first time seeing a blade.
Someday, I would love to play on the AM tour with the guys that shoot in the 90's.
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Post by fullback on Jan 1, 2012 21:36:05 GMT -5
Wow! Cool post and good info. Thank you Sir. I'll be moving towards the E-5 and 4-5 flat and X-100 soon. The coat hanger.....I'll be doing that too! Man, I'd love to hear some of your 1970's tour stories. Glad to be talking to ya. Those stories would be small tragedies, one after another. Stories of missed putts, missed cuts, cheap motels, bad diners, missed putts, rolls of quarters in phone booths, no money, no honey, missed putts, no confidence, a check (yeah!!), missed putts, missed cuts... |
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Jan 1, 2012 21:47:31 GMT -5
Wow! Cool post and good info. Thank you Sir. I'll be moving towards the E-5 and 4-5 flat and X-100 soon. The coat hanger.....I'll be doing that too! Man, I'd love to hear some of your 1970's tour stories. Glad to be talking to ya. Those stories would be small tragedies, one after another. Stories of missed putts, missed cuts, cheap motels, bad diners, missed putts, rolls of quarters in phone booths, no money, no honey, missed putts, no confidence, a check (yeah!!), missed putts, missed cuts... yahhh, but the experiences you had, and the journey.... hmmm, kinda reminds me of what I'm trying to do here..lol, it may turn out to be a small tragedy too. But then again, the experience, the journey, the cool people I'm meeting along the way......I'm loving every minute of it! YEEEEEHAWWWWWWWW! [ I just yelled that out loud; Kim is staring at me with that look again lol] |
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Jan 3, 2012 18:51:06 GMT -5
I made a fun observation yesterday. While I was on my laptop looking at grainy Hogan footage, my daughters set up the Wii game. They put in "Just Dance." Kim (my wife) was on the sofa beside me folding clothes. I glanced up at the TV and noticed the CG person dancing. I then glanced at my 4th grade daughter and noticed she was doing something similar to the CG. Hmmmmmm! Then I began my questions...
Me: 4th grade daughter, what are you doing?
4th: I'm dancing!
Me: Wow..that's cool. You're dancing just like the person on the screen. Looks like fun. I wanna try it too.
4th: Daaaaaaaaaaad, you're too old!
Me: Nooooooooo, lol, not too old. Didn't you see me at the New Year's party bustin a groove?
4th: But this isn't the same. You can't just do what you want to do. You have to keep up with the person on the TV and move just like they do, or you lose points.
Me: Well, how did you learn to move just like they do?
4th: I just looked at it over [our neighbor's] house and started doing it.
Me: Soooooooo, you didn't take a class at school on it?
4th: LOLOL! Noooooooooooooooo.
Me: Ummmmmmm, you didn't read a book about it to learn how to do it?
4th: LOLOL! Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad! Noooooooooo. You're messing me up! I'm losing points now!
Kim: Ummmm, I see what you're doing.....can you just leave them alone and let them play their game??
4th: Mahhhhhhhhhm, He's trying to make me lose!
Me: Nooo, I'm not trying to make you lose. I just want to know who showed you how to do that, so I can get them to show me.
4th: (She hits pause now, and turns to me) I already told you, you just have to look at what the person is doing and do just like it. It's EASY!!!!!! (She restarts the game)
Me: Yep, it looks easy to me. Wow...look at that...you're doing your feet and arms just like they are. You're good at this. Sooo, how long have you been doing that song? Is it your first time doing that one?
4th: (She takes a deep breath and kinda slams her arms down to her side, then pauses the game again) NooooooooooOOO. (She turns to Kim) Mom...can you tell Dad to stop. He's making me lose.
Kim: (She stares at me, shaking her head, and mumbles under her breath) Ummph, ummph, ummph....will it ever end. (By this time, I'm trying to keep a straight face and not laugh, cause the 4th grader has no idea what I'm doing).
She finally finishes the game (and yep she lost), so I wait for her to play the same song a few times to get the score she is after. Then I ask her a few final questions.
Me: Well, looks like you've gotten that one figured out. You're getting better each time you play it.
4th: Yahh, it's one of my favorite songs!
Me: So, you never told me how long you had been playing that song.
4th: Me and [the neighbor] have been playing it since Christmas day.
Me: Well, why don't you stop playing that one, and pick a song you have never ever heard of before. See what your score is. You should be real good at it because you were really good with that favorite song you just did.
4th: Noooooooooooooooooooooooo, LOLOL, that doesn't make any sense. I won't have a good score cause I don't know what the moves are. I've never seen it.
Me: Oh, ok. So that means you will never know how to do that one then. Oh well. I thought you were good at this. (Then I get up and start walking away).
4th: (Now she's kinda huffing and puffing cause she can't understand how I don't get it.) Daaaaaaaaaad, I just have to play it for a while and I will be good at that one too!
Me: Ohhhh. Ok. I thought that 9 year olds couldn't learn stuff like that. I thought they had to be told how to do it by their teacher.
4th: Nope. I don't HAVE to have my teacher. I can learn anything I want to!
Me: (I raise both my arms like I've crossed the finish line at a marathon race and yell) YES!!!!!!
Kim: (Still shakin her head) Lol, you need help lol.
8th: (Then my 8th grade daughter who has been listening to the whole conversation jumps in) Dad, I know what you were doing, you weren't fooling me. You were trying to say that what 4th grade is doing is something like your Hogan Project. She was learning what she sees the people doing on the game.
Me: Lol, Ummmmmmmm, I have no idea what you are talking about. Now how would you come up with something like that lol. I was just watching you guys play the game.
8th grader says "yeah...right" and leaves. Now it's just me and Kim sitting there.
Me: I gotta put this on the forum!
Kim: Ummmm. make sure you don't say anything crazy about me cause I am not a part of your little Hogan stuff..... and don't use my name.
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Jan 3, 2012 18:54:05 GMT -5
Lol, I just realized that I am long-winded and type too much. Some of my posts are a whole stinkin page long!
I need to invest all this typing time into club moving time!!
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Jan 3, 2012 19:30:20 GMT -5
I got an interesting comment from someone. What they said is very true......."If you learn to make your [Hogan] backswing right with slow motion (according the camera) it can be something totally different with normal speed".
My main roadblock in the beginning was the difficulty involved in analyzing Hogan's real speed swing. I had always heard guys say "you need to focus on the concentration drill." Well, I didn't trust that he was doing anything close to the concentration that he's doing in the real speed swing. Probably because I've heard so many people say that Hogan had a secret, and he took it with him to the grave. So I deduced that if there was a big secret, then why would he show it all across the world at ProAms and clinics. I was caught up in the "secret" belief. I was becoming programmed by the thoughts/beliefs of the golfing community. And when top 100 teachers spoke of this same "secret" I figured it was the gospel.
Then, just for fun, I decided to put the slow-mo of the real swing, vs concentration, side-by-side; and compare dynamic movement as well as angular position. From the waggle to the top, I was shocked to see that they are just about the same movement, dynamic, position, etc. Nothing secret when I saw them side-by-side broken down. I am now transitioning from experimentation to major focus on the concentration drill.
I do agree that doing it in super-slow snail-paced fashion is much different than at rattlenake-strike pace.
I'll just start working at .0000000001 mph and ease it up throughout the years.
Current "concentration drill" focus will only be the waggle and setup. This could easily take a year, but who knows, I could get lucky and have a learning spike.
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Jan 3, 2012 22:19:13 GMT -5
I am commonly asked..."which Hogan are you looking at to copy? Before he found out the secret? After the secret, after the crash, after he stopped playing competitively?"
I'm analyzing and experimenting with all of them, but so far, based on my flexibility and muscular boob, I may be working towards these (I have no idea what year they are, and if they are pre or post secret):
I don't think my swolen upper body will allow me to do this:
Basically, I think I can physically get close to however he was swinging in his 40, 50, and 60 year-old range:
But I'm using something from all the different eras to get an understanding.
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Jan 6, 2012 21:57:13 GMT -5
Ran into a neighbor that lives on the other side of our subdivision. He was walking his dog and saw a few stray whiffle balls in my yard and golf became the topic, and of course Hogan came up. He mentioned that one of his favorite courses is Bobby Jones in the Buckhead area and I said I also play there a few times. He asked how often I played, and that we should get together sometimes. I said I was not headed back onto the course until spring time, and I was reluctant to tell him about my project. Not because it is anything wrong with what I'm doing, but because I always have to explain "why," then deal with all the "WTF is wrong with you stuff" lol. So I just mentioned that I was in the garage tweeking my swing and working on a few things. He said he was doing the same this winter and that he was re-reading 5 lessons. Then he asked me if I had read 5 lessons and what I thought about it. And you already know what my answer was. "Nope, but....ummmmmm. I'll get to it soon." (Heck, soon could be 5 stinkin years!) He was kinda shocked that I had been into the game for 4 years and hadn't read it yet. (I'm used to that shocked look now). We rambled on some more about what the 2012 season was gonna be like, who was gonna be the front-runner.....what Tiger was gonna do....yada, yada.
The main reason for me rambling on and on and the neighbor is because he said something that caught my ear. He mentioned something like "Well, ya know, 5 Lessons is THE only golf book anybody needs. It's the best selling golf book of all time." So, I got curious and wanted to know when it was written, and that kind of stuff. I also wanted to know the date published to see which one of the swing vids I'm using as my training guide comes closest to that date.
Did a google search for "five lessons golf." Clicked on the Amazon link. Looks like the one I clicked on was published in 1985, but the original one was published in 1957. I scrolled down to the section that says "What Other Items Do Customers Buy After Viewing This Item" and "Similar Items" just to see other related books. I saw "Power Golf" (I've heard of that one mentioned a lot too), but didn't see an original publishing date.
So I decided to do an amazon search for "Power Golf" to hopefully find out the publishing date. Nothing. Then I did an amazon search for "Ben Hogan."
HOOOOOLLLLEY SHMOLEY!!!!!! I WAS SHOCKED!!!!!!
There are not only 5 Lessons and Power Golf, but a whole slew of Hogan books. This guy must have been good or something!
> Afternoons with Mr. Hogan: A Boy, A Golfing Legend and the Lessons of a Lifetime by Jody Vasquez (Mar 25, 2004)
> Ben Hogan: An American Life by James Dodson (May 3, 2005)
> Ben Hogan's Magical Device: The Real Secret to Hogan's Swing Finally Revealed by Ted Hunt and Sean Connery (May 26, 2009)
> Ben Hogan's Short Game Simplified: The Secret to Hogan's Game from 120 Yards and In by Ted Hunt (Oct 27, 2010)
> Golf Fundamental von Ben Hogan. Der Golf Albrecht. by David Leadbetter and Lorne Rubinstein (May 1, 2001)
> Hogan by Curt Sampson (May 5, 1997)
> Hogan: The man who played for glory by Gene Gregston (1978)
> Miracle at Merion: The Inspiring Story of Ben Hogan's Amazing Comeback and Victory at the 1950 U.S. Open by David Barrett (Oct 8, 2010)
> Mr. Hogan, the Man I Knew: An LPGA Player Looks Back on an Amazing Friendship and Lessons She Learned from Golf's Greatest Legend by Kris Tschetter (Oct 14, 2010)
> My Partner, Ben Hogan by Demaret; Jimmy (1955)
> The Complete Guide To Golf by Ben Hogan, Cary Middlecoff and Sam Snead (Jun 18, 2011)
> The Complete Hogan: A Shot-by-Shot Analysis of Golf's Greatest Swing by Jim McLean and Tom McCarthy (Jan 3, 2012)
> The Secret of Hogan's Swing by Tom Bertrand and Printer Bowler (Sep 29, 2006)
> The Upset: Jack Fleck's Incredible Victory over Ben Hogan at the U.S. Open by Al Barkow (Jun 1, 2012)
Ben Hogan: An entry from Gale's <i>Notable Sports Figures</i> by Julia Bauder (2004) - HTML
> Ben Hogan: The Man Behind The Mystique by Martin Davis (Sep 2002)
> Ben Hogan's "Secret" by Bob Thomas (1997)
> The Final Missing Piece of Ben Hogan's Secret Puzzle by Dave Hamilton, VJ Trolio and Brent Raklovits (Oct 26, 2010)
> The Caddie Who Knew Ben Hogan by John Coyne (May 15, 2007)
> I Remember Ben Hogan: Personal Recollections and Revelations of Golf's Most Famous Legend From The People Who Knew Him Best by Mike Towle (Mar 1, 2000)
> Ben Hogan's Secret: A Literary Portrait by Bob Thomas (Sep 1, 2001)
There were a few more, but I got tired of copying them.
Man, I'm gonna have a lot of reading to do!
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Jan 7, 2012 9:20:13 GMT -5
Gary Woodland has a cool lookin swing, and a nice left hand at impact that looks very familiar.
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Jan 7, 2012 10:20:06 GMT -5
Finally....I now have a "favorite golfer" of the new era! Gary! Gary! Gary!
Hmmmmmmm, I wonder if he's using the heavy, flat equipment that was used in the 60's?
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Jan 8, 2012 15:07:00 GMT -5
For your laughing pleasure..............
Here's some of my old vids converted from 8mm tape. I did no type of swing analysis back them. Only thing I was worried about was how far the ball went and if my finish was balanced. I didn't know anything about alignment or foot position. A guy on the driving range showed me the interlocking grip. I used to record our golf outings so we could get together at family cookouts and laugh at them. Dang, I forgot I wore a golf glove back then!
Wolf Creek 8-24-07. When I initially got into the game. Whew....took me a while to get the guts to load this vid on here lol.
Tup Holmes. 3-16-08. A year later. Think I was trying to figure out how to hit a draw on this day. Note the closed stance. Never understood it. Gave up on the draw. Went back to the straight and the fade.
Bobby Jones 7-20-08. After playing a little bit more, and reading lots of golf magazines. Looks like I had on my Tiger red that day lol.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NJ3G2JndhI&feature=g-upl&context=G2d51611AUAAAAAAACAA
[/youtube]
I also remember later in 2010 when I got a big Taylor Made tour bag and brought it to Bobby Jones and embarrased myself on the first tee. Hit both tee shots into the creek! Too much crowd pressure lol.
I didn't start all this "tweeking stuff" until June 2011.
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Jan 11, 2012 22:29:38 GMT -5
I had no idea that Hogan's club went in a loop during the waggle, from high to low, in a circular motion. I always thought it went straight back away from the ball, then straight back to the ball.
It's kinda difficult to see from the DTL and FO views.
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Jan 12, 2012 15:28:49 GMT -5
I just found the 8mm tape of my absolute first time ever playing golf, ever going to a course.
It's playing back real staticy on the 8mm camcorder I borrowed from my sister. I'll try to locate another camcorder to get it clearer, then get it converted and loaded onto youtube soon.
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Jan 12, 2012 15:33:33 GMT -5
I had no idea that Hogan's club went in a loop during the waggle, from high to low, in a circular motion. I always thought it went straight back away from the ball, then straight back to the ball. It's kinda difficult to see from the DTL and FO views. I'm getting more curious on this waggle loop. Ever since I got into this project, I have been waggling by just moving the club away from the ball; my club has always stayed in a straight line going back and forth. I was only kind of bending my wrists away from the target to allow the club to do it's thing. That's what I thought I saw happening in Hogan's FO and DTL angles. Now I see this same loop in all his waggle angles, but it's not as noticable from FO and DTL. As I pay closer attention to Hogan's looping action, it appears that his wrists make this happen. When I make my waggle "loop" as his does, I must manipulate my wrists. The curious part is........what the heck is the purpose of manipulating the wrists this way? For me, it's much easier/simplier to just waggle back and forth rather than rolling the wrists this way. Hmmmmmmmmm.....Strange. And, yaaahhhh yahhh yahhhh, I know everybody's gonna tell me that this is nothing new and that it's all in the book lol. But ya gotta remember, I'm only doing this project using video. The book will be read someday. So sorry if I'm being redundant and bringing up things in Hogan's swing that are already known of. |
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