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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Dec 27, 2011 17:05:26 GMT -5
I've been reviewing my share of Hogan videos and have yet to see a full swing of him with his left heel planted. Has anyone seen any full-swing vid of Hogan where his left heel DOESN'T raise as he gets to the top? There are couple wood swings in a row here at 125 that it does not. I think he just swing and if it lifted it lifted and for most of his career he did. But I do see the lift and stomp in all the vids in the link you posted. |
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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 27, 2011 17:10:00 GMT -5
Were probably just going to disagree on this because I dont see lift in several of those on the backswing, I see rolled. Attachments:
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Dec 27, 2011 19:42:38 GMT -5
Were probably just going to disagree on this because I dont see lift in several of those on the backswing, I see rolled. Yahhh, I do see what you mean. It's not as pronounced a lift, but there is definitely a lifting/stomp effort. If I were to have Hogan stand on a digital scale to measure amount of weight under his feet, the left foot would be off the charts for a second while the left pounded into the turf. Hmmmm, wonder if he ever had left knee issues like Tiger. Same question for the other old-schoolers that slammed the left foot/knee. |
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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 27, 2011 21:12:29 GMT -5
Were probably just going to disagree on this because I dont see lift in several of those on the backswing, I see rolled. Yahhh, I do see what you mean. It's not as pronounced a lift, but there is definitely a lifting/stomp effort. If I were to have Hogan stand on a digital scale to measure amount of weight under his feet, the left foot would be off the charts for a second while the left pounded into the turf. Hmmmm, wonder if he ever had left knee issues like Tiger. Same question for the other old-schoolers that slammed the left foot/knee. You can roll the left foot and have the majority of the weight on the right foot, just as you can have lift on the left foot and have the majority of weight on the left foot (think hacker with reverse pivot). I also think you can roll and replant to a certain extent, see Shawn Clement on youtube who demonstrates this in one of his early videos), he says you roll inside and then a roll back with a pronounced sit into the left leg. |
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Dec 30, 2011 22:09:44 GMT -5
I think I'm finished with all the general experimenting now. I have a basic idea of what is happening in the swing, and am ready to put together an actual training plan.
Based on my Take14 vid, I thought I was making pretty ok progress, but after re-analyzing Hogan's concentration drills, a lot more is starting to make sense. And when I say "make sense," I'm talking about how I translate what I see vs what I feel that I am doing physically.
I have had my biggest breakthru this week while analyzing the concentration drills from Coleman video, and Fr. Keller video. I've now made major changes in the setup of my feet, leg position, and weight distribution. From the address to the top, real vs concentration are veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery close in mechanical nature. This tells me I can now focus on concentration movements, because they closely match the real swing.
I did an analysis a few months ago of the Coleman DTL vid that shows the likeness.
Tonite, I have just finished putting together the same type of analysis of the Fr. Keller video; a comparison of real vs concentration. I tried putting audio on it. Still converting it and trying to load onto youtube.
I will also be doing the same 'real vs concentration' comparison of the Coleman FO view this weekend.
What do these vids tell me? That it should be absolutely no excuse for not mastering the takeaway/upswing/the top. (Boy, I hope I don't eat those words.)
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Dec 30, 2011 22:58:51 GMT -5
Based on this "real swing" vs Concentration Drill, there are many likenesses. The following appear to be veeeeeeery close:
Setup
Waggle
Forward Press
Takeaway
Upswing
At the top
I'll be intently focused on the concentration drill for the next few months.
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Dec 31, 2011 5:19:48 GMT -5
Ben Hogan Coleman Beach "Real Swing" vs "Concentration Drill" comparison FO
Based on this "real swing" vs Concentration Drill, there are many likenesses. The following appear to be veeeeeeery close:
Setup
Waggle
Forward Press
Takeaway
Upswing
At the top
What do these vids tell me? That it should be absolutely no excuse for not mastering these parts of the swing.
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Jan 1, 2012 16:38:11 GMT -5
I am putting together my training plan. The angle measurements listed here are nothing absolute or scientific. Just me having fun with a bunch of lines and numbers. I am comparing the real swing vs concentration, and noting the range.
Example: The angle of the outer right leg is ~77 degrees in real swing, and ~81 degrees in concentration. Range is 77-81 degrees.
This same type of data wil be gathered for DTL, R, LF, and all other views.
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Post by fullback on Jan 1, 2012 17:28:14 GMT -5
Obviously you understand that you can't really swing like Hogan without swinging clubs approximating his setup, so I'm curious about your lie angles, dead weight and swing weight.
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Jan 1, 2012 17:51:52 GMT -5
Obviously you understand that you can't really swing like Hogan without swinging clubs approximating his setup, so I'm curious about your lie angles, dead weight and swing weight. What you say is understood. But I'm just not sure if it's true yet. Right now, I'm just using standard clubs. I do plan to experiment with the same weights and lie angles, but not at this point. |
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Post by fullback on Jan 1, 2012 18:39:00 GMT -5
OK. If you're not sure that it's true, and your goal is to actually hit balls, then I guess you can try again in your next life.  |
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Jan 1, 2012 18:57:17 GMT -5
OK. If you're not sure that it's true, and your goal is to actually hit balls, then I guess you can try again in your next life. You may have the same misunderstanding most people do about my goal. I want to play a round of golf with my friends and family from the white tees and shoot in the 90's to be competitive with them. I have no care how the ball flies, whether it's a draw, or fade, just want it to be somewhere near a fairway. With the Hogan swing accent. |
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Post by fullback on Jan 1, 2012 19:10:17 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I forgot about, or didn't read the first part of this thread. Sounds like a fun goal and I hope you succeed.
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Jan 1, 2012 19:22:44 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I forgot about, or didn't read the first part of this thread. Sounds like a fun goal and I hope you succeed. Thanks fuulback. I've had this dicussion before, but wanted to get your take on it: My irons are the standard face angle, standard shaft, standard weight. I do have "real" 3 and 5 woods. Hogan AMF's. I do understand that equipment is a major part of Hogans swing, but IMO, I think anyone can pick up a broomstick, or a copper pipe, or tree branch, and still have the same basic mechanic as if they were using their "regular" equipment. Ask Elvis to get dressed in his personal stage outfit, including his personal shoes. Ask him to dance to one of his hit songs. Then ask him to remove his shoes and put yours on. Now he's dancing wearing your shoes, but he's hitting the same moves.......he just looks weird wearing your buster browns. Imagine Hogan on the range working with his 5 iron. Tiger and Sean Foley are right next to him also hitting 5 iron, and arguing about what needs to be changed in his swing to win on the PGA tour again. Hogan asks if he can try the shiny, clean Nike 5 iron Tiger is hitting all over the place. Tiger hands the 5i to Hogan. Do you think Hogan's swing mechanic will break? Do you think he will no longer swing it like Hogan? Do you think his signature moves will disappear? The outcome would be that Hogan whallops one about 180 yards, and says "Wow, this is cool buddy! It's kind of light, and the face angle is kind of different, but I could work with this!" Then Tiger would say, "Whoa! How the heck did you do that?!!!? If I could hit it like that, I could win again!" Hogan would say, ""Well the most important...uhhh...thing in the golf swing to me is the movement of the.....lower body......from the top of the swing. And if you don't mind, I'll demonstrate." |
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Post by fullback on Jan 1, 2012 20:26:59 GMT -5
I'm just an old guy who played the tour for a year in the 1970's. I played and didn't study other people's swings for decades in detail like many people here. I'm not as smart or perceptive as some of the teachers here. However, Hogan's swung the way he did in order to have the ball flight he wanted. We all do, or did. I think club setup is more important than you think it is. I don't swing like Hogan. I did see Hogan swing a few times in the early 70's and I remember his swing as being much faster than anything I've ever seen on YouTube these days. I don't know why that would be. I don't think Hogan could hit a standard club of today with the same swing. His hands would have to raise at impact or the heel of the club would dig a trench in the ground. The club would feel so light that he would have to manipulate his wrists to maintain his signature hinge (lag), where his own heavy clubs helped maintain the hinge. The momentum of the heavy club probably helped him set and hold better. I think he'd have to adjust his speed on the takeaway and that would significantly affect his timing. He had a wire coat hanger under the bottom of the grip as a remainder. Modern clubs can only have a 1mm rib. That's not a big thing, but it would change the feeling of grip pressure if it wasn't there. Those are just off the top of my head. I'm sure others have better ideas. However, I can't see any way his swing plane on the downswing would ever work with a club that wasn't maybe 4-5 degrees flatter than standard. The only way to really know is to make a club 4-5 degrees flatter, about E-5 swing weight with a heavy X-100 shaft and see. You'll have to move muscles in a sequence that may feel very different to you in order to hit the ball at all. That would be a good thing, if you want to mimic his swing... |
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