Stack and Tilt

[imperfectgolfer]

Dan,

Scott McCarron may have been taught by Jim Hardy, but he does not look like Jim Hardy, who is featured in those posed OPS-photos in his book.

Here is Jim Hardy at mid-downswing.



Jim Hardy states that he wants the right elbow to be behind the right hip. He also wants the clubface to be closed to the clubhead arc.

Here is Jim Hardy at impact.



On page 56 of his MasterClass book, Jim Hardy states-: "At and through impact, it's important to make sure that you maintain the forward bend of the spine as you had it at address. If anything, the one-plane swinger is better off if he, or she, lowers the spine angle slightly (as Hogan did) rather than raise it. Also, you want to keep your spine straight when viewed from a face-on angle, tilting neither towards or away from the target".

Here is a photo of his followthrough.



The clubshaft exits below his left shoulder.

I think that those red lines (to depict clubshaft direction/plane) that you drew on Jeff Ritter's images are invalid - with respect to image 1 and image 3. One has to draw an imaginary line from the butt end of the clubshaft to see where it is pointing - to determine whether the clubshaft is "on-plane". Because one is dealing with a two-dimensional image, one has to "guess" where that imaginary line would be pointing in 3-D space.

Here is an example - I am trying to guess where the butt end of the club is pointing in Anthony Kim's downswing.



The yellow dotted lines are my best "guesstimates". One cannot draw those lines straight towards the ball if the clubshaft is not perpendicular to the ball-target line. One has to "guess" where the butt end of the club is pointing.

Jeff.

[iteachgolf]

I drew the lines right down the clubshaft, they go from pointing well outside the ball to inside the baseline which means plane is being bent to the left (they are definitely not draw towards the ball). Anthony in the photo's above has a baseline that is to the right which drawing the lines shows just like the lines I drew on Ritter shows he is bending the baseline left.

Show me one good player that actually is in the positions depicted by Hardy in those photos. Nobody looks like Hardy in the posed photos.

BTW in the photo that says there is no side tilt, you can't be serious can you? It is plain as day he is quite a bit of side tilt.

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[gmbtempe]

iteach,

I am confused on the red lines, at the top of Jeff Ritter as you show it points outside the ball but if you do the same thing with Kim it would be outside the ball as well, or am I wring?

When I look at my own swing I have a flat shoulder turn so that line is well well outside the ball, how could I not bend the plane in that case left as you state?

[iteachgolf]

Mar 17, 2010 21:46:12 GMT -5 gmbtempe said:

iteach,

I am confused on the red lines, at the top of Jeff Ritter as you show it points outside the ball but if you do the same thing with Kim it would be outside the ball as well, or am I wring?

When I look at my own swing I have a flat shoulder turn so that line is well well outside the ball, how could I not bend the plane in that case left as you state?

AK's points inside the targetline and progressively moves more outside the targetline as the club gets closer to impact meaning baseline is right. Ritter's points outside the targetline at the top and gets progessively more inside the targetline which means it is shifted left.

Think about your old super CF swings, looked steep at P5 and then gets shallow and more under (like AK). Jeff is flat/shallow and then gets steeper. Completely different. Jeff will hit pulls and cuts, while AK misses left and overdraws it.

[iteachgolf]

Below is a photo sequence showing AK and his CF swing with a driver (baseline shifted right)

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[imperfectgolfer]

Dan,

I don't know if that photo of Jim Hardy at impact is posed or a capture image from a "real life" golf swing.

I didn't state that Jim Hardy didn't have a certain amount of spinal tilt. Jim Hardy stated in his book that as an OPS golfer he doesn't want to have any tilt at impact - neither to the left or to the right.

I am flabbergasted by those red lines that you have drawn on Jeff Ritter's and Anthony Kim's swing capture images - they are not reflective of reality because you cannot project a 3-D direction from a 2-D image onto that same image.

I personally believe that Anthony Kim has an "on-plane" downswing action and I don't think that he bends the baseline.

Jeff.

[iteachgolf]

Mar 18, 2010 1:22:39 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

Dan,


I personally believe that Anthony Kim has an "on-plane" downswing action and I don't think that he bends the baseline.

Jeff.

Said he is CF and the baseline is shifted right not bent. Red circle is simply highlighting his shaft every frame and connecting the dots. I have seen him balls enough both in person and on video to say without a doubt, especially with longer clubs, his baseline is shifted to the right and his miss is left. I have also seen Scott McCarron inside the ropes for 4 hours and then on the range for about another hour as well as on the range watching Tom Pernice hit balls multiple times and several of the other OPS guys. They all have a tendency to tip out, bend the plane left, and miss with lowish pull cuts. The can all play very good golf and can control their misses, and every pattern has a tendency.

Fact is I don't care what Hardy says he wants, all even halfway decent golfers have axis tilt at impact. If he thinks you can have no tilt at impact and believes the photo shows no axis tilt he is clearly wrong.

Video of Brian changing baseline to hit different shots (shifted right, inline, and shifted left). AK's pattern is closer to first swing and Jeff's is closer to the last one. Neither is wrong but just what it is. Only issue I have is with Jeff, Pernice, and Scott is they tend to bend it left rather than simply shift it left due to trying to swing so left with the arms so deep behind them on the downswing (some of Jeff's swings are right on plane but his bad swings are bent left).


Pernice bending plane left and pull cutting it, which according to you none of OPS guys do

[imperfectgolfer]

I think that you are making a large mistake when assessing whether a golfer is "on-plane" using DTL video images. Your red lines drawn on the Anthony Kim video are wrong.

Consider an on-plane swing.

See Martin Hall demonstrating the Smartstick.

smartstickgolf.com/why-it-works/plane

Click on the video button to view the video.

Here are still images from that video.



I have drawn a red arrowed line through his clubshaft - note that the red arrow points at the green laser dot. That means that his clubshaft is on-plane.

Note how the baseline moves from right-to-left in the image. That is normal if you have the camera on-line and far enough behind the golfer to decrease parallax distortion.

Now consider Anthony Kim's swing.



Image 1 is from another swing video. I first had to decide where to draw the baseline (yellow line). I am presuming that Anthony Kim is standing parallel to the grass-cut lines on the tee box and that his baseline is parallel to those lines. That means that he is probably aiming at that light green tree in the distance. Note that I have drawn a red arrowed line along his clubshaft - it hits the baseline about 2 feet in front of the ball. That means that he is "on-plane".

Image 2 is your image. I drew the baseline parallel to those grass-cut lines on the tee box. That baseline is directed down the middle of the fairway and it is directed towards that house in the distance. I drew a blue-arrowed line along his clubshaft - it hits the baseline about 2 feet in front of the ball (the same as image 1). He is therefore "on-plane". Your red line - which implies that the butt end of his club is pointing outside the baseline and about 6" in front of the ball - is wrong, and you are incorrectly assessing whether a golfer is "on-plane" or not.

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

Dan,

I never stated that a Hardy OPS golfer cannot bend the plane left.

Tom Pernice looks like he is definitely bending the plane left after impact. Theoretically, a Hardy OPS golfer should be able to generate an "on-plane" swing, where the clubhead arc is symmetrically in-to-square-to-in relative to the baseline, but Tom Pernice didn't do that in that particular swing video. He pulled the club inside-left after impact.

Jeff.

[Richie3Jack]

Jeff, Dan, and company.

I wanted to move the last few posts to a OPS thread, but I couldn't because the message board doesn't have that capability to move individual posts. So I will have to keep those posts here. However, I would appreciate it if we could get back to more of the S&T.

The posts in debate of OPS have been downright excellent, but I would prefer to keep that conversation over on that thread.





3JACK

[iteachgolf]

Jeff every swing would hit any baseline at some if you made the line short/long enough. I think I know how to determine the plane angle, and I think I have a pretty good understanding of TGM considering I am an AI. Anthony Kim is on plane, never said he wasn't, but his plane is shifted out to the right (Closed-Square in TGM) which I tried to explain before. Smock in the video uses Closed-Square, Square-Square, and Open-Square.

Compare how much the angle in the lines changes for Martin Hall versus AK. The red circle lines are as close as you can get on a 2D image as it is simply the shaft highlighted at various points in the swing.

[gmbtempe]

Do you know how Brian consciously makes the changes to the plane, is it just an alignment change?

[imperfectgolfer]

Dan,

You wrote regarding Brian Smock -: " Smock in the video uses Closed-Square, Square-Square, and Open-Square."

Why does he change his stance relative to his baseline?

Why doesn't he keep his stance square to the baseline - even if he shifts the baseline left, or right, of the target when he wants to hit draws/fades rather than straight shots?

Jeff.

[iteachgolf]

Mar 18, 2010 11:13:03 GMT -5 gmbtempe said:

Do you know how Brian consciously makes the changes to the plane, is it just an alignment change?

yes because it's what we worked on the last 3 days. Alignment isn't changed, he is setup square to the target on all the shots, but baseline changes. For CF arms are lowest and handpath is most in, left arm is about 20º inside the stance line at P5, hips more linear. For CPish cuts handpath less in and a little more upright, left arm shifts out to stance line at P5, more rotational.

[iteachgolf]

Mar 18, 2010 12:21:26 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

Dan,

You wrote regarding Brian Smock -: " Smock in the video uses Closed-Square, Square-Square, and Open-Square."

Why does he change his stance relative to his baseline?

Why doesn't he keep his stance square to the baseline - even if he shifts the baseline left, or right, of the target when he wants to hit draws/fades rather than straight shots?

Jeff.

He aims at the target. Any on plane swing with a square baseline will have a a true path that is inside out which makes it tough to hit fades and you'd have to hit push fades. By shifting baseline left of the stance the true path will be slightly across the ball and makes it easier to hit small pull fades with tighter dispersion and his miss is just a slight pull. No big double crosses.