Stack and Tilt

[iteachgolf]

Mar 14, 2010 13:22:26 GMT -5 gmbtempe said:

If a SnT golfer uses 30 degrees bend leftwards to achieve 0 degrees vertical at the top then how many degrees left does Hogan bend to get 6-8 degrees right, 22 or so?

I mean Hogan does have leftwards tilt as he makes his backswing?

This is where Jeff doesn't get it. Hogan can't be "tilted right the entire downswing" because his right shoulder is much higher than the left at the top of the swing and until P6. When P&B say they are tilted left all they mean is the left shoulder is lower than the right at the top of the swing. This is what I tried to show earlier and you can see if anything Brian has a steeper shoulder turn than I do (tilting more left).

So is my shoulder turn that much steeper than Hogan's?

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[imperfectgolfer]

Dan,

I haven't the foggiest idea what you are talking about.

I am talking about spinal, and upper torso, tilt - as viewed from a face-on view.

I am not talking about spinal bend angles or shoulder turn angles - as viewed from a DTL view.

In this Hogan sequence, he has rightwards spinal tilt throughout his entire downswing - whatever the position of his right shoulder.



Jeff.

[iteachgolf]

Please explain how I am tilted 30º to the left then?

The P&B photo you keep posting is showing how the left shoulder turns down in the backswing, which is viewed from DTL. The 30º they talk about is the angle I showed from DTL compared to me and Hogan. Nothing is tilted towards the target. Again I think you greatly misunderstand what they are describing which is why I'm sure you don't understand what I'm talking about. My lower center is more forward than my upper center (slight reverse hip turn) so I actually have a few degrees of axis tilt when viewed from FO.

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[gmbtempe]

iteach,

Yea the whole tilting thing they described was confusing to me until I watched "tilten with Anthony Mann" on youtube from david orr. He describes how we all tilt left, demonstrated the differences and how to do it correctly from a SnT perspective.

I think the 30 degrees is misleading as they explain it but I think I understand it.

[imperfectgolfer]

Dan,

I never stated that you have 30 degrees of spinal tilt.

I stated that Bennett/Plummer state in their book that a S&T golfer should tilt leftwards by 30 degrees. When that 30 degrees of leftwards-tilt is incorporated into the angle of spinal bend inclination it is difficult to assess how much spinal tilt was incorporated into the action - from a face-on view. In their S&T book, Bennett/Plummer state if a S&T golfer uses the "correct" amount of leftwards spinal tilt, that it will cause the shoulders to rotate along a more vertical/ferris-wheel plane-of-motion during the backswing. On the DTL view of your swing, your shoulders are not as steep as the photographs in the S&T book, so I presume that you are not a full-fledged S&T golfer. I don't know if you have a different concept of how much leftwards-tilt a golfer needs to incorporate in his backswing action to prevent the spine from being rightwards tilted. Please feel free to elaborate on your own personal swing philosophy, and please explain how it differs from Bennett/Plummer's S&T model.

By the way, in their book, the 30 degrees of leftwards spinal tilt is the tilt to the left (as seen from a face-on view) and it is not the exact degree of shoulder turn angle (seen on a DTL view) that a S&T golfer will acquire if he adopts a 30 degree leftwards-tilt in his backswing action. Bennett/Plummer do not state exactly how many degrees the shoulders should be angled (as seen in a DTL view) - they merely express the opinion that they want the shoulders to turn in a circle (with the stationary upper swing center being the center of the circle of rotation).

See page 56 of their book.

Jeff.

[iteachgolf]

I don't need to read the book as I know Andy very well and have spent a ton of time with him both on tour and at golf schools (probably over 300 hours). It's a rotated shoulder turn (so shoulders turning perpendicular to the spine). It's that simple.

But because you brought up the book, it says in the very first sentence on that page that you see the left tilt at the top of the swing it would have to be looking downtarget and that when viewed from face on it would simply look like the golfer simply stayed in the address tilt. It says to remain in your inclination the shoulders tilt at ABOUT 30º which happens to be pretty close to what the average person sets up with as far as forward flexion goes. "Bennett/Plummer do not state exactly how many degrees the shoulders should be angled (as seen in a DTL view)" IT IS ALL ABOUT THE STEEPNESS OF THE SHOULDER TURN (thats what the about 30º is referring to) and nothing to do with leaning towards the target. The EXTENSION of the spine would make the upper body go towards the target not the left tilt. Too much left tilt would simply makes your head move downward.

Again you don't understand what S&T even is. There is no number as peoples spine at setup is different. The amount of left tilt at the top will match the amount of bend at setup (shoulders turning perpendicular to the spine). S&T is a system of measure and not a specific model. It comes from spectruming different pieced of the golf swing and how the affect ball flight. Funny you say that I'm not a full-fledged S&T golfer as Andy seems to think my swing is pretty much spot on as well as Brian's. Again only reason Brian looks different at the top of the swing is his shoulders turn about 80º versus mine turning well past 90º especially with longer clubs, but his head remains stable and he turns his shoulders in a circle.

[iteachgolf]

Some photos of Mike Bennett at the top of the swing. BTW all the photos are videos I took of clinic's either hosted by me or ones I attended and helped teach at. He is actually hitting my clubs and the driver swing was at about 80% speed to demonstrate the flying wedge and how you can draw the ball without "releasing" the toe. Iron shot is his normal full swing for a CF push draw.

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[iteachgolf]

Again shoulder turn isn't crazy steep so he must not be S&T. Pattern simply isn't as extreme as you believe it to be and again you truly have very incomplete knowledge of the system.

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[imperfectgolfer]

Dan,

You wrote-: "But because you brought up the book, it says in the very first sentence on that page that you see the left tilt at the top of the swing it would have to be looking downtarget and that when viewed from face on it would simply look like the golfer simply stayed in the address tilt. It says to remain in your inclination the shoulders tilt at ABOUT 30º which happens to be pretty close to what the average person sets up with as far as forward flexion goes. "Bennett/Plummer do not state exactly how many degrees the shoulders should be angled (as seen in a DTL view)" IT IS ALL ABOUT THE STEEPNESS OF THE SHOULDER TURN (thats what the about 30º is referring to) and nothing to do with leaning towards the target. The EXTENSION of the spine would make the upper body go towards the target not the left tilt. Too much left tilt would simply makes your head move downward."

I think that you are wrong.

This is the photo from B/P's book.



On page 14, B/P state-: "Standing upright with your hands at your side, tilt your upper body to the left so that your head moves outside your left leg. ---- That's your spine tilt to the left".

That statement applies to image 3 in the above photo. It's a leftwards tilt.

On page 45, B/P state-: "The spine first tilts to the left, which gives the left shoulder the freedom to go downward, and must continue to tilt left throughout the backswing. If at any point the spine stops tilting to the left, the left shoulder will level out, moving the center of the shoulders back. When you get to the top of the backswing, you should be in a full side tilt when viewed downtarget, meaning that you have tilted to the left as far as you can".

That statement means that the leftward tilt of the spine is designed to keep the upper swing center stationary, and that allows the left shoulder to move downward into a full side-tilt.

Leftwards-tilt = Tilt towards the target, and side-tilt = tilt towards the ground.

On page 56, B/P state-: "To recognise the left tilt at the top of the swing, the observer would have to be looking downtarget, where the left tilt is seen as a tilt toward the ball, just as the spine was at address. It might appear that the golfer has simply stayed in his address tilt, but he has actually tilted about 30 degrees to the left to maintain his inclination to the ball. If the golfer stayed in his address tilt as he turned back, the left shoulder would not go down. The center of the shoulder turn would move to the right, over the right foot".

In other words, B/P are stating that the 30 degrees leftwards tilt to the target is designed to keep the shoulder center stationary and prevent it from moving to the right, and to allow a golfer to maintain his inclination to the ball.

You also wrote-: " IT IS ALL ABOUT THE STEEPNESS OF THE SHOULDER TURN (thats what the about 30º is referring to) and nothing to do with leaning towards the target. The EXTENSION of the spine would make the upper body go towards the target not the left tilt. Too much left tilt would simply makes your head move downward."

I think that you are wrong. The 30 degrees is not referring to the steepness of the shoulder turn - see the bold highlighted unedited B/P quotations from page 56 (in a previous paragraph). Also, the extension of the spine is not designed to make the upper body go towards the target. It is designed to prevent the left shoulder from dipping too much downwards during the backswing. B/P state on page 56-: "The spine must arise out of its address tilt toward the ball. To understand this, look at it this way. If you only tilted to the left and turned your shoulders, your head would move down changing your distance from the ball. So, as you tilt to the left, you must also stretch your spine , from tilted forward to vertical. Again, this may look from the face-on view like you are simply staying in your address posture, but you are actually straightening your spine to counteract the left tilt."

In other words, the spine stretching maneuver is designed to prevent the head moving down, thereby changing the angle of inclination - which would occur as result of the leftward-tilt maneuver (in the absence of a spinal stretch manuever).

Finally, you wrote-: "Again you don't understand what S&T even is."

Could you please refrain from condescending ad hominem comments. In this "quality" golf forum, 3jack encourages vigorous debate and strongly-expressed intellectual counterarguments. Your counterarguments will not gain any additional merit by adding "ad hominem" insults. Let the forum members independently decide who better understands B/P's S&T swing methodology - as described by B/P in their book.

Jeff.

[iteachgolf]

Again you are way off base. Picture 3 is the side tilt. Do picture 3 then turn, that is the steepness of the shoulder turn. I don't get my info from a book but from the source. The leftward tilt and side tilt are the same thing. I said IF the spine went towards the target it would be because of the extension and not the tilt left (so the difference between a "right center backswing" and a "left center backswing" is the extension of the spine and not the tilt). The 30º is referring to the steepness of the shoulder turn and if you want clarification you can simply call Andy Plummer yourself or send him a message on Facebook. Tilt left controls the up and down movement of the spine and the extension of the spine controls the amount the head move laterally. The book isn't even their words how they wrote them and Andy has been vocal about how disappointed he is in how the book was published (flying wedge didn't even make it into the book).

Those are not condescending comments but fact is you don't understand the system and have no first hand experience getting any information from the source. You are the one who made multiple post and even an article on S&T and its problem on the back etc and you misunderstand what they are even describing. You are a very bright and passionate guy but saying you don't understand something isn't condescending.

[Richie3Jack]

Mar 15, 2010 0:45:12 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

Finally, you wrote-: "Again you don't understand what S&T even is."

Could you please refrain from condescending ad hominem comments. In this "quality" golf forum, 3jack encourages vigorous debate and strongly-expressed intellectual counterarguments. Your counterarguments will not gain any additional merit by adding "ad hominem" insults. Let the forum members independently decide who better understands B/P's S&T swing methodology - as described by B/P in their book.

Jeff.

Jeff, I do not see what Dan (iteach) wrote in this particular instance as being an insult or condescending. There was an earlier post that I had to edit that was condescending, Dan and I discussed it and we are on the same wavelength on this matter.

IMO, it's alright to say somebody doesn't understand something if you back it up with some facts or some logic and reason.

I would like to state that modifying posts for condescending tones does not bother me because I fully expect it to happen from time to time. In fact, I've found myself modifying my very own posts because I thought they were condescending.

But, I don't think what Dan has posted here is condescending or an insult because he's backed it up. So, let's get back to the thread.





3JACK

[imperfectgolfer]

Dan,

You state-: "The leftward tilt and side tilt are the same thing."

Leftward tilt can easily be recognised by an observer who has a face-on view of a golfer. However, B/P state that one can only see side-tilt when viewing a golfer more from the side and from my perspective that really represents the degree that leftward-tilt alters the upper half of the forward spinal tilt (or spinal bend angle) to make the spine appear to be be more vertically-oriented (from a face-on view). If a golfer didn't incorporate that leftwards-tilt into his backswing action, then the spine would be angled towards the right without any side-tilting influence, and that would produce the classic reverse-K posture.

In this swing video of Slicefixer's students - the golfers have a spine that is oriented to the right (as viewed from the back) because they no leftwards-tilting phenomenon in play during their backswing action, that would produce a side-tilting action towards the target, thereby forcing the spine to be more centralised.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=12KHR1xr2SA

Going back to this diagram.



Again, this is what B/P state-:

"On page 14, B/P state-: "Standing upright with your hands at your side, tilt your upper body to the left so that your head moves outside your left leg. ---- That's your spine tilt to the left".

That statement applies to image 3 in the above photo. It's a leftwards tilt. A leftwards tilt is seen from a face-on view.

On page 45, B/P state-: "The spine first tilts to the left, which gives the left shoulder the freedom to go downward, and must continue to tilt left throughout the backswing. If at any point the spine stops tilting to the left, the left shoulder will level out, moving the center of the shoulders back. When you get to the top of the backswing, you should be in a full side tilt when viewed downtarget, meaning that you have tilted to the left as far as you can".

Note that B/P state that a leftwards tilt gives the left shoulder freedom to move down. That is reflected in image 4 - where the golfer, who has acquired 30 degrees of leftwards tilt, then allows the left shoulder to rotate perpendicularly around the upper thoracic spine. When the left shoulder rotates downward, then the golfer ends up in the posture of image 4 where the upper torso appears vertically-oriented. In image 4, one cannot see the leftwards tilt anymore (from a face-on view) - although it is still there from a biomechanical perspective. One has to move downtarget to see the leftward tilt, which has now become the side-tilt. The side-tilt is what happens to a leftward tilted spine - when a golfer moves from an erect spine posture to a bent-over spine posture.

From my perspective, the key element in the S&T swing is the need to continuously tilt the spine leftwards throughout the backswing to keep the shoulder center stationary, and to prevent it moving to the right. That is what distinguishes the S&T swing from a rightwards-centered backswing action swing style. Another distinguishing feature that differentiates the two swing styles is the shoulder turn angle in the backswing. B/P categorically state that they want to the shoulders to turn along a more vertical, ferris-wheel plane and they do not want a S&T golfer to turn the shoulders horizontally - like a rightwards-centered backswing action swing style golfer eg. Hogan. That means that the shoulder turn angle of a full-fledged S&T golfer must be steeper than Hogan's shoulder turn angle (which is relatively horizontal).

You wrote-: " I said IF the spine went towards the target it would be because of the extension and not the tilt left (so the difference between a "right center backswing" and a "left center backswing" is the extension of the spine and not the tilt)."

If you believe that fact (that the difference between a leftwards-centered backswing action and a rightwards-centered backswing action is not due to a different degree of leftward tilt of the spine), then we operate in parallel mental universes.

Jeff.

[gmbtempe]

My wife often says I am in a parallel mental universe (:

[gmbtempe]

Jeff,

I don't understand how the left shoulder could get lower than the right if you did not have some tilt to the left in the backswing. Your shoulder would turn level and there would just be bend and you would be way off the ball at the top of the swing, not sure you could even keep your eye on it.

[imperfectgolfer]

Greg,

Take a straight piece of wood, and tape another straight shorter stick of wood at right angles to the first stick - like a crucifixion stand. The second stick represents the cross stick.

Now tilt the straight stick forwards (to create the equivalent of a spinal bend angle) and also tilt it to the right (so that the right shoulder end is lower than the left shoulder end of the cross-stick). Then simply rotate the straight stick clockwise - without altering the degree of rightwards-tilt. Doesn't the right shoulder end of the cross stick end up slightly higher than the left shoulder end of the cross-stick - without any tilting of the straight stick to the left during its rotational motion?

Jeff.