Stack and Tilt

[imperfectgolfer]

Dan,

I didn't know that was your swing.

It is a S&T swing - according to my definition/understanding of a S&T swing. I have never argued that a golfer cannot hit the ball well with a S&T swing. What interests me is whether you can hit the ball just as well using a rightwards-centralised backswing swing action (like Brian's swing), which means that you wouldn't have to use such an active pelvic slide action and a reverse-C finish. Can you hit the ball as well using a rightwards-centralised backswing action, a rotary pelvic motion in the downswing and an erect I finish (like Brian)?

Jeff.

[iteachgolf]

My amount of axis tilt at setup and head position varies depending on shot I am trying to hit. When hitting fades (CP model) my head is back of center and I have more axis tilt. Because of the CP release it will be more rotational and less linear so I can swing slightly across the ball. For a high push draw the head will be more forward and shoulders more level at setup with a much more linear downswing to accommodate the more CF release. I think your understanding of S&T is severely limited and incomplete if I can be frank, and that is not meant as a put down.

You claim you love Sean O'Hair's swing and how different Brian's swing is from mine at both the top of the swing in the finish. I have attached a photo that really shows that Sean is exaggerating the pieces the MOST and how similar me and Brian are. My pivot will look slightly different as I have a larger shoulder turn than Brian does.

I'm not sure how you can say Sean O'Hair's action is "rightward centered" and vastly different than the S&T model and that my finish is much more "reverse C" than Brian's.

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[gmbtempe]

Those pictures mimic what I saw that your swing is more central based than some of the other SnT models out there, I think Clearwater probably has the most pelvic action, maybe Dana.

[imperfectgolfer]

Dan,

You wrote-: " I think your understanding of S&T is severely limited and incomplete."

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion. However, I think that there is a significant difference between Brian's rightwards-centered backswing action swing style and your S&T swing.



In your backswing, you straighten your right leg more and slant your right thigh leftwards, That causes your pelvis to be pushed over to the left, and your right pelvis is also more elevated. You have also incorporated the leftwards spinal tilt into your spine bend inclination angle - as described by Bennett/Plummer.

By contrast, Brian has his right knee flex unchanged. That keeps his pelvis horizontal in the backswing. His pelvis is more centered and he doesn't have most of his weight over his left leg (like you). He has a rightwards-centered torso with no sign of incorporating a leftwards spinal tilt into his spinal bend angle of inclination - his shoulders therefore rotate more horizontally in the backswing.

Here is the followthrough comparison.



You have incorporated a lot of left-lateral pelvic slide action in your downswing pelvic motion. That causes the outer border of the pelvis to be well outside the left foot. That causes you to have more of a reverse-C posture.

Brian's pevic motion is more rotary (ala Hogan's left hip clearing action) and he has far less left-lateral pelvic slide action. His lumbar spine is therefore not being subjected to excessive left-lateral latriflexion forces.

Regarding Sean O'Hair - he only looks like he has a leftwards-centered backswing action swing style, but that is only because he has a huge shoulder turn in the backswing which torques his upper thoracic spine leftwards. His pelvis is horizontal and he is not incorporating a leftwards tilt into his spinal bend angle - at the level of the mid-lower thoracic spine (as can be seen in a S&T golfer).

Jeff.

[gmbtempe]

Jeff, your issue though with SnT is not that it can be affective but what might happen to someones back in 20-30 years?

If that is the only issue with the swing it seems like a risk I would be willing to take if it improved my game significantly.

I found it hard to do and I did not see any real improvement but I did not see a health risk, at least in the short term that I played with it. I say this keeping in mind I did not have constant professional instruction.

[imperfectgolfer]

Greg,

You state that it rational for a golfer to choose to use a S&T swing style - even if it increased his risk of chronic back problems over a period of a few decades - if it significantly improves his swing.

That statement is only partly sensible - because I am not at all convinced that he couldn't hit the ball just as well using Brian's rightwards-centered backswing action swing style (rather than a S&T swing style). I know of no biomechanical/mechanical reason why a rightwards-centered backswing action swing style cannot be regarded as being the optimal methodology for hitting the ball solidly/consistently (compared to a S&T swing). Can you think of any reasons why a S&T swing should be regarded as being mechanically/geometrically/biomechanically better?

Jeff.

[gmbtempe]

Better, I can not in theory....but sometimes what people can actually do in testing may trump the theory.

[imperfectgolfer]

Greg,

I don't doubt the fact that a small subset of golfers will hit the ball better with a S&T swing.

However, take a skilled golfer like Brian Smock. Brian could probably stick to his present rightwards-centered backswing action swing style, or he could convert to a standard S&T swing style (like Dan's). I suspect that he has the skill to play excellent golf using either choice. If true - then I would recommend that he continue to use a rightwards-centered backswing action swing style, rather than a S&T swing style, because it is likely to be biomechanically safer (over the long-term).

Jeff.

[gmbtempe]

I am just a fan of trying different things and seeing what works best for me, not saying your not its just how I view golf swing exploration.

[iteachgolf]

So the reason Sean looks more left is because he has a large shoulder turn (not to mention his right hip is higher than his left at the top of the swing), yet the fact that I look more left has nothing to do with the fact that I turn about 20º more than Brian does (notice you can see his right shoulder vs. mine). His right hip is just as high as mine and the line you drew on Brian's hip vs. mine almost comical. On me the line is drawn on the outside of my hip and the line on Brian is so far inside of it his pants are visible on the other side of it.

Brian does NOT maintain the same flex in the right leg the entire backswing and his hips do not turn level. Our top of the swing is actually fairly similar with respect to tilts, his hips actually turn on a steeper angle (because his rear leg is actually straighter than mine). His shoulders are NOT turning more horizontally than mine in the backswing either (almost the same).

How is my finish a reverse c yet Brian and Sean's isn't? Btw my hips are much more open at both impact and in the followthrough comparison yet he is more rotational and my hips are only slightly more forward?

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[iteachgolf]

Impact comparison

Which one looks more like Hogan?

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[Richie3Jack]

I can't imagine Hogan hitting balls with an iPod




3JACK

[iteachgolf]

Mar 13, 2010 21:47:25 GMT -5 Richie3Jack said:

I can't imagine Hogan hitting balls with an iPod




3JACK

haha but I am on the elbow plane with a much more open body at impact.

[siteseer2]

In truth, Teach...neither but not to say I don't like the action...'cause I do... I like that you have gotten alittle more rotational... you darn near can see one and a half cheeks at p7!! Teach you're classic S&T...and you have a little more leftward bias to your pivot--particularly with your right leg, and you straighten your right leg which gives you a nice pelvic tilt at p4, and keeps your shoulders in the backswing on a nice circular arc...
In time Brian, will incorporate MORE of your S&T action, and improve his ballstriking, IMO...
Used to be guys on Tour moved the ball both ways...now its about power and a consistent impact and consistent curvature, with NO face errors...IMO

[iteachgolf]

Mar 13, 2010 22:02:46 GMT -5 siteseer2 said:

In truth, Teach...neither but not to say I don't like the action...'cause I do... I like that you have gotten alittle more rotational... you darn near can see one and a half cheeks at p7!! Teach you're classic S&T...and you have a little more leftward bias to your pivot--particularly with your right leg, and you straighten your right leg which gives you a nice pelvic tilt at p4, and keeps your shoulders in the backswing on a nice circular arc...
In time Brian, will incorporate MORE of your S&T action, and improve his ballstriking, IMO...
Used to be guys on Tour moved the ball both ways...now its about power and a consistent impact and consistent curvature, with NO face errors...IMO

I know its not Hogan but is certainly more so than Brian. Both those swings in the dedication video are CP fades though . So hips turn more to kick left arm out at P5. Been working on being able to go CP and CF at will.