Post by Richie3Jack on Feb 24, 2010 12:38:13 GMT -5
In other threads I've mentioned my clubfitting history and my issues with clubfitting. But here I will go again.
I've always been somewhat tall for my age and I am currently 6'4" tall (I highly doubt I'll ever get any taller).
I've been about 6'4" tall since my senior year in high school, which was 15 years ago.
When I first got fitted for clubs, clubfitting was more or less in its infancy outside of Pings fitting system. But, I didn't like Ping irons so I avoided them.
Anyway, to stop hitting shots towards the toe of the club, the solution was to bend the clubs more upright. 5* upright!
Eventually I never really improved my ballstriking with these fitted clubs so the solution became that I needed longer shafts and less upright lies. So we went with a graphite shafts in my irons that were +1" over standard and 1 degree upright.
After quitting the game for 8 years, I wanted to get some new irons and wound up with again steel shafts that were +1/2" and 2* upright.
As I keep reading posts and/or talk to people about their clubs, the great majority of golfers have longer than standard shaft lengths and upright lies.
Here's a fact for you. The most upright lie angles on the PGA Tour throughout the years were 4* upright (used by very upright swinging Scott Hoch).
And most PGA Tour players use standard shaft lengths, or no more than +1/4" longer than standard.
Here's a link to Ernie Els WITB (http://www.ernieels.com/golf/whats_in_my_bag/callaway_x-prototype_irons.html)
Even Els at 6'4" tall or so only has his shafts +1/2" longer than standard and 1* upright. That makes them effectively 2* upright. That's about as long and as upright as you will see clubs on Tour. Most of them are very close to being standard lies and lengths.
So, why are amateurs going with these extremely upright lie angles and shaft lengths?
Because clubfitters tell them to do so.
And the problem is that it just makes their swing worse over time.
I've joined John Erickson's Advanced Ball Striking swing instruction modules (www.advancedballstriking.com). One of the things took me awhile to buy into, but now I understand it, is how harmful upright lie angles and longer shafts are to a golfer's swing.
Most golfers are able to adjust...be it consciously or subconsciously...to their equipment. A big issue is that if you make your clubs more upright to take care of your more upright downswing, then what's likely to happen is that with more upright clubs your downswing will just get more upright over time.
The same can be said with flatter lie angles. There's a great tendency to flatten out your downswing by going to flatter lie angles.
One beauty about flat over upright is that you will always have room to make that deadly, over the top wipe across the ball which can turn into a shank. But, you can only get so far underplane and that will be cancelled out if your lie angles are flat enough. And if you finally learn how to properly *release* the club flat enough, you won't be underplane.
With an upright swing you're more likely to miss shots left AND right. With a flatter swing (and flat lie angles to match), you almost all but eliminate the left side of the course.
I'm 6'4" tall, and currently I'm playing irons that are effectively 5* FLAT. It helps that I've been instructed properly, but within a week I've been able to hit those clubs with those flat lie angles without an issue. And since then, I have yet to really miss a shot left. Now, I do tend to miss some shots to the right, but you can adjust pretty quickly. And if you look at courses and greens, most of the time you are left with a much easier up and down if you miss right instead of missing left and long which comes with the OTT shot.
The problem with clubfitters is most of them cannot break 80 and/or assume that the golfer wants a 'quick fix' and will not work on their game to strive for the best swing they can possibly achieve.
Thus, instead of working to fix a problem such as hitting shots off the toe, clubfitters give it a band-aid approach by making the lie angles more upright or adding length to the shafts.
The problem here is obvious...if I have some slight adjustments to make so my swing is better and I can stop hitting shots off the toe...making the clubs more upright makes it more difficult for me to actually make those adjustments.
But again, if you're a golfer who really doesn't care to work too much on their game and just wants to get the ball airborne, then the clubfitting recommended will probably work for you. But if you're willing to work on your game, I would suggest seeing somebody who is more in tune with your swing and your goals, like a professional golf instructor.
3JACK
I've always been somewhat tall for my age and I am currently 6'4" tall (I highly doubt I'll ever get any taller).
I've been about 6'4" tall since my senior year in high school, which was 15 years ago.
When I first got fitted for clubs, clubfitting was more or less in its infancy outside of Pings fitting system. But, I didn't like Ping irons so I avoided them.
Anyway, to stop hitting shots towards the toe of the club, the solution was to bend the clubs more upright. 5* upright!
Eventually I never really improved my ballstriking with these fitted clubs so the solution became that I needed longer shafts and less upright lies. So we went with a graphite shafts in my irons that were +1" over standard and 1 degree upright.
After quitting the game for 8 years, I wanted to get some new irons and wound up with again steel shafts that were +1/2" and 2* upright.
As I keep reading posts and/or talk to people about their clubs, the great majority of golfers have longer than standard shaft lengths and upright lies.
Here's a fact for you. The most upright lie angles on the PGA Tour throughout the years were 4* upright (used by very upright swinging Scott Hoch).
And most PGA Tour players use standard shaft lengths, or no more than +1/4" longer than standard.
Here's a link to Ernie Els WITB (http://www.ernieels.com/golf/whats_in_my_bag/callaway_x-prototype_irons.html)
Even Els at 6'4" tall or so only has his shafts +1/2" longer than standard and 1* upright. That makes them effectively 2* upright. That's about as long and as upright as you will see clubs on Tour. Most of them are very close to being standard lies and lengths.
So, why are amateurs going with these extremely upright lie angles and shaft lengths?
Because clubfitters tell them to do so.
And the problem is that it just makes their swing worse over time.
I've joined John Erickson's Advanced Ball Striking swing instruction modules (www.advancedballstriking.com). One of the things took me awhile to buy into, but now I understand it, is how harmful upright lie angles and longer shafts are to a golfer's swing.
Most golfers are able to adjust...be it consciously or subconsciously...to their equipment. A big issue is that if you make your clubs more upright to take care of your more upright downswing, then what's likely to happen is that with more upright clubs your downswing will just get more upright over time.
The same can be said with flatter lie angles. There's a great tendency to flatten out your downswing by going to flatter lie angles.
One beauty about flat over upright is that you will always have room to make that deadly, over the top wipe across the ball which can turn into a shank. But, you can only get so far underplane and that will be cancelled out if your lie angles are flat enough. And if you finally learn how to properly *release* the club flat enough, you won't be underplane.
With an upright swing you're more likely to miss shots left AND right. With a flatter swing (and flat lie angles to match), you almost all but eliminate the left side of the course.
I'm 6'4" tall, and currently I'm playing irons that are effectively 5* FLAT. It helps that I've been instructed properly, but within a week I've been able to hit those clubs with those flat lie angles without an issue. And since then, I have yet to really miss a shot left. Now, I do tend to miss some shots to the right, but you can adjust pretty quickly. And if you look at courses and greens, most of the time you are left with a much easier up and down if you miss right instead of missing left and long which comes with the OTT shot.
The problem with clubfitters is most of them cannot break 80 and/or assume that the golfer wants a 'quick fix' and will not work on their game to strive for the best swing they can possibly achieve.
Thus, instead of working to fix a problem such as hitting shots off the toe, clubfitters give it a band-aid approach by making the lie angles more upright or adding length to the shafts.
The problem here is obvious...if I have some slight adjustments to make so my swing is better and I can stop hitting shots off the toe...making the clubs more upright makes it more difficult for me to actually make those adjustments.
But again, if you're a golfer who really doesn't care to work too much on their game and just wants to get the ball airborne, then the clubfitting recommended will probably work for you. But if you're willing to work on your game, I would suggest seeing somebody who is more in tune with your swing and your goals, like a professional golf instructor.
3JACK
