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Post by cwdlaw223 on Jul 26, 2012 6:29:21 GMT -5
Have a lesson for tommorow. Went to the range tonight and hit it a bit better (read: big draw) thinking swing "up" on the backswing rather than "around." Big draw is different than a duck hook. Big draw = face well closed to path. Duck hook = toe shot. (Many "instructors" won't take the time to explain why.). There is a hand path issue for duck hooks. Apparently teeace doesn't control the sweet spot and it just moves itself in space. The rest of us have a hand path. Swinging left will help reduce big draws.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Jul 26, 2012 7:03:23 GMT -5
Path, Face Angle & Centerness of Hit. Those three variables affect ballflight the greatest. Work from impact backwards if you want a quick fix. I suspect you don't have time for major swing changes. Work for a playable miss. getting your path left helps reduce hooks because it gets the face closer to the path.
Don't ever aim parallel left with big draws. Aim right and trust your swing.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Jul 26, 2012 9:05:37 GMT -5
Richie is correct. Teeace/Tapio/Grady is wrong. The more left you swing the more you might hit it on the toe. It's more than just face/path with duck hooks. It's gear effect. If it works, great. If not, get on Trackman to see what happens at impact. I was ony talking about the path in the downswing to be specific and the effect of moving the sweet spot in space with hand path. Who the hell is Grady and why my graphs are wrong? And your claim has nothing to do with the truth. There is no connection between those two things. Also the last part is meaningless like that. "moving sweet spot in space with hand path" what a sentence I never said the graphs were wrong. I said you were wrong. You aren't the graphs. How exactly do you move the sweetspot in space? With your hand path. That's what's connected to the shaft which influences the clubehad. His duckhook doesn't happen because of flipping per se. It happens because of a toe shot and massive gear effect. He could drive/hold all day long and hit duck hooks if he hits the ball on the toe of the driver. A big draw? That's a different story.
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Post by teeace on Jul 26, 2012 13:54:37 GMT -5
I never said the graphs were wrong. I said you were wrong. You aren't the graphs. How exactly do you move the sweetspot in space? With your hand path. That's what's connected to the shaft which influences the clubehad. His duckhook doesn't happen because of flipping per se. It happens because of a toe shot and massive gear effect. He could drive/hold all day long and hit duck hooks if he hits the ball on the toe of the driver. A big draw? That's a different story. No, I'm not wrong, because hand path and club head path goes about 90 degrees across long time before impact. It's typical misunderstanding, and really logical that they follow each other but in reality they don't because of time. Typical plane thinking also where everything has been seen moving on some plane what in reality doesn't exist. And 10 degrees closed face to target and 3 in to out are surely enough to make a duck hook. I have seen even much worse from players with that strong roll over release. Here are the distances from the target line of one tour player
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Jul 26, 2012 14:11:53 GMT -5
Yep, hands have nothing to do with the programming of the clubehad! Don't even swing. Just use mental effort! You have to program your clubhead. Part of that programming is how one swings. You use your hands to swing. The poster wanted a simple answer. You try to build him a backwards clock. The 3D path you swing your hands on influences where that sweetspot is traveling in space.
There are duck hooks and then there are Duck Hooks. If you've ever hooked the ball in your life you know the later very well. You need to be able to read between the lines when using our language.
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Post by teeace on Jul 26, 2012 14:51:18 GMT -5
Yep, hands have nothing to do with the programming of the clubehad! Don't even swing. Just use mental effort! You have to program your clubhead. Part of that programming is how one swings. You use your hands to swing. The poster wanted a simple answer. You try to build him a backwards clock. The 3D path you swing your hands on influences where that sweetspot is traveling in space. There are duck hooks and then there are Duck Hooks. If you've ever hooked the ball in your life you know the later very well. You need to be able to read between the lines when using our language. Maybe you are right. It really seems it'n not possible to read the lines you write. But anyway real duck hooks are mainly made by heel hit with really closed face. You can hit big hooks from toe, but they don't start low and left without closed face. And about paths... there is a joint in the wrists and that can make many things happen and even more if you understand the deceleration effect. And thats much connected to hand path. Players with supination got the right wrist extended early, got more similar paths to hands and club head and club head passing hands earlier. What I told to the guy, is swing left with hands and keep the right wrist bent. Don't try to release the club, it releases too much anyway.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Jul 26, 2012 17:56:21 GMT -5
Duck hooks typically happen from the toe! It can happen from the heel, but it's not realistic. This guy has played before. You come up with wacky exceptions to a simple answer and confuse people. Why you don't get your own site to explain yourself and test if what you truly say would create a following is beyond many of us. You've been baned at three sites for your ideas (GolfWRX, Jeffy's and Brian's).
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Post by teeace on Jul 27, 2012 1:55:55 GMT -5
Duck hooks typically happen from the toe! It can happen from the heel, but it's not realistic. This guy has played before. You come up with wacky exceptions to a simple answer and confuse people. Why you don't get your own site to explain yourself and test if what you truly say would create a following is beyond many of us. You've been baned at three sites for your ideas (GolfWRX, Jeffy's and Brian's). I'm not banned from WRX, I quit reading and posting there for other reasons. And we know the story with Jeffy and I don't want to say about Manzella a lot, but the main reason there was that he felt I'm friend of Jeffy and against him with that. But why should I open my site when the question is here. Thats simple case for me and I help people daily to fix that in my work. Big hooks from toe: twisting face open, ball starts to the right and gear effect makes it spin to the left. Duck hooks from heel: face twisting more closed when it was already closed. Ball starts left and low and gear effect is not enough to spin it to the right as the difference between the path and face angle is too big. Period. And to the new dad once again: try to turn the whole club facing to the target, not only the club face and hold that. Read Kelvins articles about tour type releases. It's all there.
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Post by gmbtempe on Jul 27, 2012 9:36:42 GMT -5
I hit it in the heal and can hit duck hooks with the best of them.
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Post by teeace on Jul 27, 2012 11:13:48 GMT -5
I hit it in the heal and can hit duck hooks with the best of them. I think we all do. I think also cwd is totally alone with his opinion, but it doesn't resist him to be strong in his claims. But it's still quite funny to read amateurs strong opinions... specially those try believers
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Post by virtuoso on Jul 27, 2012 12:12:20 GMT -5
@ Ryan, you have a takeway issue which leads to a few other things, I would suggest getting a qualified instructor to help you. you can't get your handpath low and left the correct way from what you're doing now. Also you weren't actually hitting a ball from what I saw, so things can change in the move you posted when done for real. Seek good quality instruction as a quick tip of handpath low and left isn't enough, there's a bit more that needs some attention. Good luck! All of this is from tba is spot on. Teeace, don't get me wrong, I like a lot of what you say about the swing, BUT: Ryan has a massive steepening move in his transition (partially cascading from the backswing), I mean it actually goes deeper and steeper...and then you want him to add Hogan's handpath at impact....which happens to be another type of steepening move? Ryan's transition is literally the exact opposite of Hogan. Now, if you get him to transition like Hogan...which would be an enormous swing change.....then go ahead and swing left with the handle before impact. The old fliparoo that Ryan has going is almost a direct result of his initial downswing move...and we can trace the origins of that in the backswing.
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Post by teeace on Jul 27, 2012 13:52:06 GMT -5
@ Ryan, you have a takeway issue which leads to a few other things, I would suggest getting a qualified instructor to help you. you can't get your handpath low and left the correct way from what you're doing now. Also you weren't actually hitting a ball from what I saw, so things can change in the move you posted when done for real. Seek good quality instruction as a quick tip of handpath low and left isn't enough, there's a bit more that needs some attention. Good luck! All of this is from tba is spot on. Teeace, don't get me wrong, I like a lot of what you say about the swing, BUT: Ryan has a massive steepening move in his transition (partially cascading from the backswing), I mean it actually goes deeper and steeper...and then you want him to add Hogan's handpath at impact....which happens to be another type of steepening move? Ryan's transition is literally the exact opposite of Hogan. Now, if you get him to transition like Hogan...which would be an enormous swing change.....then go ahead and swing left with the handle before impact. The old fliparoo that Ryan has going is almost a direct result of his initial downswing move...and we can trace the origins of that in the backswing. Never problem with different opinions and posts like this He got this steepening also because his standing too close to the ball and typically sees the swing to go around the horizontal axis. Swinging the flat shaft around him, makes many things change. What I mean is that when he does what I told him, he really soon finds other things that he has to adjust to get it done. It will change his posture and bsw also without saying a word about those. People are too afraid to try something completely different and they want small fixes to the swings that never gonna work. You know I have seen people taking lessons and practicing bsw for years and still shooting like shit all the time... also some other small things. I saw it again this week how former ET player can't brake 80 any more in last 50 rounds and every small detail has been under instruction. Then complete change of thoughts and 75 at the first tournament round. But it took 4 years from him to be strong enough to let those new thoughts in and had to go deep enough.
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Post by tba on Jul 27, 2012 14:39:27 GMT -5
All of this is from tba is spot on. Teeace, don't get me wrong, I like a lot of what you say about the swing, BUT: Ryan has a massive steepening move in his transition (partially cascading from the backswing), I mean it actually goes deeper and steeper...and then you want him to add Hogan's handpath at impact....which happens to be another type of steepening move? Ryan's transition is literally the exact opposite of Hogan. Now, if you get him to transition like Hogan...which would be an enormous swing change.....then go ahead and swing left with the handle before impact. The old fliparoo that Ryan has going is almost a direct result of his initial downswing move...and we can trace the origins of that in the backswing. Never problem with different opinions and posts like this He got this steepening also because his standing too close to the ball and typically sees the swing to go around the horizontal axis. Swinging the flat shaft around him, makes many things change. What I mean is that when he does what I told him, he really soon finds other things that he has to adjust to get it done. It will change his posture and bsw also without saying a word about those. People are too afraid to try something completely different and they want small fixes to the swings that never gonna work. You know I have seen people taking lessons and practicing bsw for years and still shooting like shit all the time... also some other small things. I saw it again this week how former ET player can't brake 80 any more in last 50 rounds and every small detail has been under instruction. Then complete change of thoughts and 75 at the first tournament round. But it took 4 years from him to be strong enough to let those new thoughts in and had to go deep enough. Just because you tell him to swing low and left doesn't mean he will change other things, and in fact it can make things even worse for him, it's so incomplete and just one of those quick swing tips that you might as well not even give out, it has little benefit. It's like saying when you come to the fork in the road, take it. I repeat to Ryan find a qualified instructor that can give you a more complete evaluation of what you need and maybe you can develop a pattern that suits your needs.
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Post by teeace on Jul 27, 2012 14:56:03 GMT -5
Just because you tell him to swing low and left doesn't mean he will change other things, and in fact it can make things even worse for him, it's so incomplete and just one of those quick swing tips that you might as well not even give out, it has little benefit. You have experience about that or is it just how you believe it goes? tba, how many players have you been coaching and how long you have been teaching this game?
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Post by tba on Jul 27, 2012 16:27:10 GMT -5
Just because you tell him to swing low and left doesn't mean he will change other things, and in fact it can make things even worse for him, it's so incomplete and just one of those quick swing tips that you might as well not even give out, it has little benefit. You have experience about that or is it just how you believe it goes? tba, how many players have you been coaching and how long you have been teaching this game? Yep,yep, just swing low and left it will cure everything. Always goes this way with you, you think no one else has any experience about golf , just you, what's your problem? Yep, yep there's no possibility that in his current b.s. position and transition move that trying to do that tip of yours won't make things worse?.... ;D ;D ;D. And you're asking me for my qualifications... ;D @ Ryan, find a qualified instructor, quick tips are bandaids and sometimes they inflict more damage. Good luck!
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