awkrad
Beat up Radials
Posts: 44
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Post by awkrad on Apr 11, 2011 14:35:38 GMT -5
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Post by gmbtempe on Apr 11, 2011 14:40:42 GMT -5
I posted, not sure what his point was. Seems like a baited attempt to get people to agree with him. |
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awkrad
Beat up Radials
Posts: 44
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Post by awkrad on Apr 11, 2011 14:47:42 GMT -5
I posted, not sure what his point was. Seems like a baited attempt to get people to agree with him. Virtually all the regulars on BM's board go out of their way to agree, and flame anyone who doesn't. One of the reasons I just read that forum now (and even that only occasionally). |
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Post by Richie3Jack on Apr 11, 2011 15:03:10 GMT -5
Here's my problem with the argument.
1. I've never heard an authorized S&T guy talk about limiting/restricting their pivot. In fact, I've heard quite a few of them talk extensively about finding ways to increase the pivot of the pelvis on the backswing in order to help increase power.
2. They were playing Augusta. As awesome as the Masters was, ANGC is a full-blown bombers course now. Outside of Donald, everybody on the first page was hitting bombs and Donald putts out of his mind and had a great chip on 18 which was actually preceeded by a great iron shot into the green. Even though the shot hit the flag, where it ended up...from where he was, was still an excellent leave.
I don't have a horse in this race as some like to say. I don't make any money off this site and if I wanted to take lessons from a S&T instructor, I could do that easily as there are some not too far away from me.
But, if Tiger hits it like he did Sunday, he's going to win and he's going to win a major and he's going to have a good chance of winning big time. Even with his struggles putting.
Even if he doesn't quite win, as long as his ballstriking returns to near his 2000 level, it's going to impress a lot of golfers.
In part it's why I believe that Haney dumped Tiger. I think he got with his agent and his 'team' and probably they foresaw Tiger dumping Haney. Well, if that happens that will hurt Haney's 'brand.' And that's a ton of $$$$ to lose.
So how do we best remedy that forseeable situation? Dump Tiger first with some cockamamie excuse. That way if he struggles afterward the *perception* is that it was because Haney dumped him. But, I digress.
If Tiger gets somewhere close to his 2000 level, people will be flocking to Foley and soon he'll be in the top 5 of Golf Digest's 'top 50 instructors and we'll probably see some 'Foley Project' tv shows soon.
It's happened throughout time. That's how Jim Flick got popular, then Jimmy Ballard, then Leadbetter, then Butch.
Lynn Blake's popularity shot thru the roof when Brian Gay got his 2 wins in 2009. I love Brian Gay and all, but he's nowhere near as popular as whomever is the #1 ranked player in the world, much less Tiger Woods.
So with that, if Foley has success with Tiger, the S&T and similar works to the S&T will increase in popularity.
3JACK
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Post by andypatnou on Apr 11, 2011 20:26:48 GMT -5
Ya his argument doesn't make sense to me either. Adam Scott and Charles Schwartzel in the pics he posted dont even move their heads on their backswings...(adam scotts swing)
Charles Schwz Swing
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Post by kamandi on Apr 11, 2011 23:49:16 GMT -5
In essence, this is his main point .....
Brian Manzella ......
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"I think that this "arms super-glued to the upper torso, don't break an egg under the right foot on the backswing, cut off finish GOLF PATTERN" was old as a revolution on a couple of fronts. Not just S&T."
...........
"It is just a pattern (or two) that might work for someone."
"It is NOT the future of golf."
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Post by andypatnou on Apr 12, 2011 0:15:00 GMT -5
I would brake an egg every time under my right foot when I swing a golf club ...and so would everyone of my students...
Not Dynamic?
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Post by michaelmcloughlin on Apr 12, 2011 0:30:30 GMT -5
Don't quite get his point. Scott and Schwartzel have both gotten their hands deeper on the back swing. These swings were good enough last year.
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Post by michaelmcloughlin on Apr 12, 2011 0:44:14 GMT -5
What's it mean if one of these guys wins next week? Upper arms on the body
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Post by kamandi on Apr 12, 2011 2:26:03 GMT -5
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Post by Richie3Jack on Apr 12, 2011 7:54:51 GMT -5
Some more of my thoughts.
1. Baddeley isn't exactly striking the ball great. He had a poor 2010 *ballstriking.* That's really the point of all this swing talk....what swings will help a golfer strike the ball better so they can shoot lower scores. The problem I have with posting up pics of guys in the top 15 in the World Rankings is that they don't necessarily need to be a great ballstriker. While Danger Zone play is the most important part of the game...somebody like Luke Donald has been no better than an average Danger Zone player. And he's never really struck the ball great from anywhere else and is a poor driver of the ball. But he is BY FAR AND AWAY the best putter on Tour and has a tremendous short game. He's more of an exception to the rule than anything and not a guy whose swing I would want to emulate, impersonate, watch closely, etc. His putting skill on the other hand...
Baddeley this year has improved his Danger Zone play dramatically and his power off the tee dramatically.
But.....
He's merely an average Danger Zone player at this moment. And he was really bad before and really bad in 2010. He's playing a similar game to Donald in the sense he's a poor driver of the ball and a great putter. The only difference is that just about everywhere else Donald is a very average ballstriker whereas Baddeley is pretty much a poor ballstriker everywhere else, except for in the Danger Zone *2011 Year-to-Date*.
Personally, I'd wait until the end of the year to judge Baddeley's change because anybody can get hot for a month. If his Danger Zone play regresses down to his old form, than all he's really improved is his power off the tee...but only because his launch angle is much better (swing speed is still the same).
2. I'm not exactly sure what Brian means by the 'arms super-glued to the torso.' If he's talking about CP Release, then I don't believe he undersands CP Release at all. Nobody I've ever talked to that employs a CP Release consistently and effectively has said to me that they actively try to have their upper arms glued to their chest. It's just a result of what it *looks* like when you execute the CP Release correctly.
I'm not sure if Brian is talking about CP or not, so I'll try to leave it at that in case he's discussing something else. But I will say that now that I utilize CP 'more correctly' (still has a ways to go), I've only gained about 30-40 yards with my driver and 1-2 clubs with my irons.
Oh, and S&T in general doesn't teach CP, it teaches CF.
3. My problem with the cut-off finish is when S&T guys really get into pivot braking. I don't mind pivot-braking if you're trying to hit one super high. But in general, my stock shot with CP is more than high enough. I generally almost never bother with pivot braking because I think it's very risky to pull off because I think anytime you try to stop or halt momentum, you're going to be less precise. Much like a car traveling 70 mph trying to brake. The more you brake, the more the car will slide sideways.
But, there's not much use in having to wrap the club around your neck. You can do it if you want, but it's not going to make you more powerful. Arnold Palmer hit it long with a cut-off finish. Troy Matteson hits it long with a cut-off finish.
And even still, length doesn't matter nearly as much as Danger Zone play.
The difference between Gary Woodland in '09 vs. '11? He was one of the worst Danger Zone players in '09 and now he's above average from there (ranked 64th as of last week).
So distance doesn't mean much if you can't play well in the area where the scores tally up the most.
3JACK
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brianmanzella
Apex II's
3Jack Top 50 Swing & Top 20 Short Game Instructor
Posts: 63
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Post by brianmanzella on Apr 12, 2011 8:17:28 GMT -5
I saw no "tripod" pivots.
I saw no "weight goes left first" pivots.
I saw no super flat swings except Kucher, who's club is still as high off of the ground as mine. He's tall.
I saw NO cut off finishes.
I saw LONG HITTING.
I have gone on record as saying that ALL OF THE ABOVE MIGHT BE GREAT FOR SOMEBODY.
Not for everyone.
Not a revolution.
I said the history books will show I was right.
I look pretty good in the last two majors.
Give a brother some credit.
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Post by iacas on Apr 12, 2011 9:11:58 GMT -5
Oh, and S&T in general doesn't teach CP, it teaches CF. You keep saying that, Rich, but no, it doesn't. iacas.org/f/wi_cp_release.jpgiacas.org/f/baddeley_plummer_cp_driver.jpgThe "release" we teach at Golf Evolution is far closer to a "CP release" than anything else, and though we "let" people get a little more CF-ish with the driver, that's relative to the irons. S&T is an inline swing, and we talk just as much about the handle, the clubhead, the arms, etc. staying on the plane after impact as during the backswing. A stock shot draw does not mean "CF." As for Brian's post, you apparently weren't watching the same tournament as everyone else or have very different definitions for several words. |
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davidwedzik
Beat up Radials
3Jack Top 50 Instructor
Posts: 26
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Post by davidwedzik on Apr 12, 2011 9:16:25 GMT -5
Here's my problem with the argument. 1. I've never heard an authorized S&T guy talk about limiting/restricting their pivot. In fact, I've heard quite a few of them talk extensively about finding ways to increase the pivot of the pelvis on the backswing in order to help increase power. 3JACK Richie - thanks for posting this as coming from me it would have not had the same "weight" if you know what I mean. This is the FIRST thing I thought when I saw the thread. Frankly I just get really mad when I see his stuff like this and then I realize it is NOT worth my time. Much in the same way I don't waste my time wondering why we never get to see a whole lot of BM's students improvements..... Andy posted some good videos (as did others) to make the point that we would LOVE the similarities and the things that many of these guys are doing...wouldn't change much, if any, of it. Anyway...just one man using his soapbox to make himself look good by discounting others. He is not the first or the last to ever do this type of thing. That is why he doesn't take issue with just some random instructor doing "his thing"...he can't get any reach with that. He needs the lightning rod to do so. Dave |
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Post by Richie3Jack on Apr 12, 2011 9:34:24 GMT -5
Here's a question...
Matt Kuchar has a very flat swing, but is tall.
I assume that Brian's assertion is that they 'cancel' each other out.
So where do members here stand on this?
I personally don't believe that your height makes a difference in this regard. The way your body is designed with the relation of the shoulders, torso, arms, etc. along with the design of the club, if you swing flat you're likely to have a lot of the same characteristics regardless if your 6'4" tall or 5'7" tall, the same with if you swing upright.
3JACK
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