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Post by nothere on Oct 6, 2010 20:41:57 GMT -5
Jamo, You wrote-: "Your wrists are free to rotate (independent of your forearms)". I believe that it is biomechanically impossible for the wrists to rotate independently of the forearms. See - perfectgolfswingreview.net/wrist.htmJeff. It could be that my terminology is off. Look at Ringer's video at about 5:05. He has the club at a 90* angle and his wrists are free to, as he calls it, "twist." His forearms don't twist, but his wrists do, and it alters the clubface. My contention is that if when his right wrist is hinged like it is there and he is able to manipulate the clubface primarily with his wrists, if his right wrist is hinged at impact (as he shows that it should be when he demonstrates impact), his wrists should still be free to "twist". My terms could be off but if you try that demonstration from my last post I think you will get what I mean. I think it's better to let Ringer explain but i think your misunderstanding what he is saying,
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 6, 2010 20:44:51 GMT -5
Jamo,
You wrote-: "It could be that my terminology is off. Look at Ringer's video at about 5:05. He has the club at a 90* angle and his wrists are free to, as he calls it, "twist." His forearms don't twist, but his wrists do, and it alters the clubface."
Your terminology is off. He is not "twisting" his wrists at 5:05 minutes - a word I avoid like the plague because it is so imprecise. He is palmar flexing (arching) and dorsiflexing (bending) his wrist. It is biomechanically possible to palmar flex (or dorsiflex) the left wrist without any need to rotate the left forearm. By the way, I agree with you - left wrist arching (which is associated with right wrist bending) at impact does affect the clubface angle.
Note a conceptual mistake that Ringer makes at 4:15 minutes. He holds the club parallel to the ground, and roughly in-line with his left forearm, and then he tries to demonstrate that arching (palmar flexing) the wrist doesn't change the clubface angle. However, that's artificial - because in a golf swing the clubshaft is at a ~45-60 degree angle to the ground (as it travels along the surface of the inclined plane through the impact zone), and any palmar flexion (arching) of the left wrist will alter the clubface angle - relative to the ball-target line - if the clubshaft is kept on the inclined plane.
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Post by Ringer on Oct 6, 2010 20:48:14 GMT -5
I think there is one problem in your logic. If you have a forward leaning shaft (which it sounds like you say is a good thing, and I agree) your wrist is, in effect, still cocked. In this video you clearly show that when they wrist is cocked 90* your wrist does alter clubface direction. Thus if you have a forward leaning shaft at impact (which would mean your wrist is slightly cocked) your wrist would still have an effect on clubface angle. Look forward to hearing your reply. This is indeed a very good challenge to the idea. I always appreciate a question that makes me look more closely at things. It still holds true though, even if the left hand is low and slightly cocked at impact. The trick in all of this is that cocking doesn't change the clubface alignment at all compared to the back of the left forearm. What REALLY goes on is that when the wrist arches or bends, it moves the clubhead further back or further ahead of the path compensating for whatever it does to the clubface relative to the target line. As you arch the wrist, you place the clubhead further back along the path. This may open the clubface slightly to the target line, but in order to now return the clubhead to the ball you must move your hands further along their path. When you move your hands further along their path they start to rotate relative to the target line thus squaring up the face anyway.
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Post by Ringer on Oct 6, 2010 20:51:49 GMT -5
Which wrist is still cocked at impact? or do you mean the right wrist is still bent back? The right wrist is still bent back. Just pick up a club and try it. Keep your hands in relatively the address position and create a right angle by bending your right wrist back, like in the video. It doesn't have to go a full 90*, just bend it to mimic an ideal forward shaft lean that you would be looking for at impact. Your wrists are free to rotate (independent of your forearms), just like in the video, and when they do they alter the clubface angle. Now turn your shoulders/arms through the shot, without letting go of the wrist angle, until you are at solid impact positions, with the hands leading and the right wrist still bent. Your wrists should still be a similar position, and they should be free to rotate and alter the clubface angle. Looking forward to what you guys think. Your hand cannot rotate independently of your forearm. It's just not bio-mechanically possible. Your hand can bend (slapping), and cock... but not rotate without rotating the forearm.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 6, 2010 20:54:43 GMT -5
Ringer - you wrote-: " As you arch the wrist, you place the clubhead further back along the path. This may open the clubface slightly to the target line, but in order to now return the clubhead to the ball you must move your hands further along their path. When you move your hands further along their path they start to rotate relative to the target line thus squaring up the face anyway".
I respectfully disagree.
If the left wrist is arched at impact, then the clubface is open to the ball-target line. It is too late to move the hands further along their path (in order to square the clubface) - because they have already reached their impact location.
Jeff.
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Post by Ringer on Oct 6, 2010 20:55:04 GMT -5
Jamo, You wrote-: "Your wrists are free to rotate (independent of your forearms)". I believe that it is biomechanically impossible for the wrists to rotate independently of the forearms. See - perfectgolfswingreview.net/wrist.htmJeff. It could be that my terminology is off. Look at Ringer's video at about 5:05. He has the club at a 90* angle and his wrists are free to, as he calls it, "twist." His forearms don't twist, but his wrists do, and it alters the clubface. My contention is that if when his right wrist is hinged like it is there and he is able to manipulate the clubface primarily with his wrists, if his right wrist is hinged at impact (as he shows that it should be when he demonstrates impact), his wrists should still be free to "twist". My terms could be off but if you try that demonstration from my last post I think you will get what I mean. Wouldn't my wrist watch be twisting as I twist the door knob? If my wrist watch is twisting then so is my forearm.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 6, 2010 20:59:04 GMT -5
Ringer - you asked-: "Wouldn't my wrist watch be twisting as I twist the door knob? If my wrist watch is twisting then so is my forearm."
Correct.
However, Jamo was referring to the 5:05 minute time point in your video - when you were not demonstrating a "door knob" twisting action.
Jeff.
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Post by Ringer on Oct 6, 2010 21:02:01 GMT -5
Jamo, You wrote-: "It could be that my terminology is off. Look at Ringer's video at about 5:05. He has the club at a 90* angle and his wrists are free to, as he calls it, "twist." His forearms don't twist, but his wrists do, and it alters the clubface." Your terminology is off. He is not " twisting" his wrists at 5:05 minutes - a word I avoid like the plague because it is so imprecise. He is palmar flexing (arching) and dorsiflexing (bending) his wrist. It is biomechanically possible to palmar flex (or dorsiflex) the left wrist without any need to rotate the left forearm. By the way, I agree with you - left wrist arching (which is associated with right wrist bending) at impact does affect the clubface angle. Note a conceptual mistake that Ringer makes at 4:15 minutes. He holds the club parallel to the ground, and roughly in-line with his left forearm, and then he tries to demonstrate that arching (palmar flexing) the wrist doesn't change the clubface angle. However, that's artificial - because in a golf swing the clubshaft is at a ~45-60 degree angle to the ground (as it travels along the surface of the inclined plane through the impact zone), and any palmar flexion (arching) of the left wrist will alter the clubface angle - relative to the ball-target line - if the clubshaft is kept on the inclined plane. Ok, set up to a ball. Now DO NOT allow your wrists to turn at ALL. Just pick up the club by arching your left and bending your right. Now look at your clubface. Where is it lined up? Still at my target.
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Post by nothere on Oct 6, 2010 21:03:07 GMT -5
Ringer - you wrote-: " As you arch the wrist, you place the clubhead further back along the path. This may open the clubface slightly to the target line, but in order to now return the clubhead to the ball you must move your hands further along their path. When you move your hands further along their path they start to rotate relative to the target line thus squaring up the face anyway". I respectfully disagree. If the left wrist is arched at impact, then the clubface is open to the ball-target line. It is too late to move the hands further along their path (in order to square the clubface) - because they have already reached their impact location. Jeff. The arching is before impact and at impact and the forearm is rotating to square the face that is delofted due to the arching.
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Post by nothere on Oct 6, 2010 21:03:51 GMT -5
Jamo, You wrote-: "It could be that my terminology is off. Look at Ringer's video at about 5:05. He has the club at a 90* angle and his wrists are free to, as he calls it, "twist." His forearms don't twist, but his wrists do, and it alters the clubface." Your terminology is off. He is not " twisting" his wrists at 5:05 minutes - a word I avoid like the plague because it is so imprecise. He is palmar flexing (arching) and dorsiflexing (bending) his wrist. It is biomechanically possible to palmar flex (or dorsiflex) the left wrist without any need to rotate the left forearm. By the way, I agree with you - left wrist arching (which is associated with right wrist bending) at impact does affect the clubface angle. Note a conceptual mistake that Ringer makes at 4:15 minutes. He holds the club parallel to the ground, and roughly in-line with his left forearm, and then he tries to demonstrate that arching (palmar flexing) the wrist doesn't change the clubface angle. However, that's artificial - because in a golf swing the clubshaft is at a ~45-60 degree angle to the ground (as it travels along the surface of the inclined plane through the impact zone), and any palmar flexion (arching) of the left wrist will alter the clubface angle - relative to the ball-target line - if the clubshaft is kept on the inclined plane. Ok, set up to a ball. Now DO NOT allow your wrists to turn at ALL. Just pick up the club by arching your left and bending your right. Now look at your clubface. Where is it lined up? Still at my target. Exactly. And if i was going to squash something into the ground with the back of my lead wrist arriving first i would want that sucker nice and firm.
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Post by Ringer on Oct 6, 2010 21:04:55 GMT -5
Ringer - you wrote-: " As you arch the wrist, you place the clubhead further back along the path. This may open the clubface slightly to the target line, but in order to now return the clubhead to the ball you must move your hands further along their path. When you move your hands further along their path they start to rotate relative to the target line thus squaring up the face anyway". I respectfully disagree. If the left wrist is arched at impact, then the clubface is open to the ball-target line. It is too late to move the hands further along their path (in order to square the clubface) - because they have already reached their impact location. Jeff. Jeff at this point I'm willing to bet you disagree the earth is spherical. You don't even look at what is there in front of your eyes. Even if you don't think my words are perfectly explaining it the way you want it to be explained, what I am conveying is still correct. And I did mis-speak. It doesn't open the clubface. I should not have said that because that was wrong. The clubface is still aimed at the target even if you just bend the right wrist and arch the left. It does NOT open the face relative to the target line. I mis-spoke there.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 6, 2010 21:06:04 GMT -5
Ringer - you wrote-: " Just pick up the club by arching your left and bending your right. Now look at your clubface. Where is it lined up? Still at my target."
What do you mean by "pick up"? What biomechanical actions are you performing during a "pick-up" maneuver? Are you lifting the clubshaft off the surface of the inclined plane?
Jeff.
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Post by nothere on Oct 6, 2010 21:10:50 GMT -5
Ringer - you wrote-: " Just pick up the club by arching your left and bending your right. Now look at your clubface. Where is it lined up? Still at my target." What do you mean by "pick up"? What biomechanical actions are you performing during a "pick-up" maneuver? Are you lifting the clubshaft off the surface of the inclined plane? Jeff. Just hold the club at address and bend your right wrist back and your left wrist under so it becomes bowed/arched all that happens is the clubface is delofted. Geez. Anyone that can hit a low shot under a tree branch gets it.
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Post by Ringer on Oct 6, 2010 21:10:53 GMT -5
No, because if you JUST arched your wrist, the club would be picked up OFF the plane. If the club is still "on plane" as you make your arch motion, then you have rotated either your forearm or your left flying wedge.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 6, 2010 21:13:33 GMT -5
Nothere wrote-: "The arching is before impact and at impact and the forearm is rotating to square the face that is delofted due to the arching." Correct! It is the left forearm rotation (release of PA#3) that squares up the clubface by impact - irrespective of whether one has an arched (ball behind low point), or flat (ball at low point), left wrist at impact. Jeff.
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