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Post by gmbtempe on Oct 7, 2010 12:40:25 GMT -5
So in order to be on plane I assume the "tumble" action means one is below plane at the start the downswing, then "tumbles" to get on plane?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 7, 2010 12:43:25 GMT -5
Greg,
You asked-: "By playing with a stronger grip though, say like Trevino, who also had lots of forward lean I assume in that case you could get away with less need for forearm rotation?"
Not necessarily.
If a golfer (swinger) adopts a strong left hand grip at address, then he has already pronated (rotated) his left forearm at address to a certain degree. He still needs more forearm rotation in his backswing to get to an end-backswing position where the clubshaft is parallel to the ball-target line - the amount needed is less if the golfer has a lax left shoulder joint that allows for a large amount of internal rotation of the left humerus in the left shoulder socket and if the golfer has a large degree of upper torso rotation. This "additional" amount of left forearm rotation must be reversed in the downswing - part of the "reversal of left forearm rotation" happens in the early downswing when the hands/clubshaft are rotated back onto the inclined plane, and part of the "reversal of left forearm rotation" happens between the 3rd parallel and impact (between P6 and P7 - during the release swivel action). There should be no left forearm rotation between P5 and P6 in a swinger - where the "tumble" action is supposed to be happening.
Remember that if a swinger has a shorter backswing action where the hands/clubshaft doesn't leave the inclined plane, and doesn't get to a P4 position where the clubshaft is parallel to the ball-target line, then he obviously doesn't need to use any left forearm rotation (supination) in the early downswing to get back on the inclined plane.
Jeff.
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Post by Ringer on Oct 7, 2010 12:44:34 GMT -5
Getting very confused now............so BM vertical tumble action is just another fancy way of saying that the left forearm rotates into impact from P6 to P7? I agree with Jeff though I rarely see any of this "tumble" action from P4 to P6. gmbtempe, in the video remember I said the rotation of the arm can happen in the upper arm or lower arm. Basically rotate from the left shoulder socket down, or left elbow down. If you rotate from the left shoulder socket, then I'd say it's Brian's tumble. (But you'd have to ask him if that's accurate for HIS definition of tumble) If you rotate from the elbow down (forearm) then that would be twisting. This guy seems to have it right too. www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_ANwstkZ8I
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Post by Ringer on Oct 7, 2010 12:47:11 GMT -5
So in order to be on plane I assume the "tumble" action means one is below plane at the start the downswing, then "tumbles" to get on plane? In Anthony Kim's swing, yes. However Anthony uses more twist than tumble. Some people can be above plane though which allows for less need of the tumble. This is why a lot of people who have trouble closing the face will swing "over the top" and left.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 7, 2010 12:51:13 GMT -5
Ringer - you wrote-: "Again Jeff, words that you are putting in my mouth. I NEVER.. REPEAT... NEVER said the tumble HAS to happen early. But it DOES happen."
Where does it happen? Does it happen before P6? If it happens after passing the P6 position, then it is nothing more than the left arm/forearm rotary motions that are part-and-parcel of the release swivel action.
If it happens before P6, as BM asserts, then I would like to see a swing video of a golfer who is using a tumble action. I have never seen a professional golfer "tumble" between P5 and P6.
Jeff.
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Post by Ringer on Oct 7, 2010 12:53:07 GMT -5
Jeff, ask Brian for the proof of HIS statements. I am not him.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 7, 2010 12:58:40 GMT -5
Ringer, Greg asked the following question-: "So in order to be on plane I assume the "tumble" action means one is below plane at the start the downswing, then "tumbles" to get on plane? You replied-: "In Anthony Kim's swing, yes. However Anthony uses more twist than tumble." Here is Anthony Kim's downswing Where is AK underplane at the start of his downswing? Where is AK employing a tumble action that steepens the clubshaft? I can see no time-point in AK's downswing action where he is i) underplane and I can see ii) no steepening of the clubshaft in AK's early-mid downswing action. You also stated-: "Jeff, ask Brian for the proof of HIS statements. I am not him." However, you also "apparently" believe in the reality of a tumble action - so you should also be able to demonstrate its existence. Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Oct 7, 2010 13:01:12 GMT -5
I dont see it in Kims or Applebys swing, thats why I assume I am not understanding it.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 7, 2010 13:33:39 GMT -5
Ringer,
You referred us to this Chuck Quinton video.
CQ is wrong to state that that the left forearm supinatory roll-over action must start to happen from the start of the downswing. If that phenomenon actually happened, then the back of the FLW would become more vertical between P5 and P6, and the clubshaft would steepen. I have never seen that "clubshaft-steepening" phenomenon happen in a good golfer's swing (if he doesn't come OTT). If it actually happens, then it should be readily possible to demonstrate the clubshaft steepening between P5 and P6 - and my challenge remains, post a swing video of any professional golfer performing this "tumble" action between P5 and P6.
The irony about CQ's assertion is that he contradicts himself - between 6:00-6:50 minutes he states/demonstrates that the clubshaft must flatten in the mid-downswing (between P5 and P6) and he specifically states that a golfer should not steepen the clubshaft and throw it over-plane.
Jeff.
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Post by Ringer on Oct 7, 2010 14:06:03 GMT -5
I dont see it in Kims or Applebys swing, thats why I assume I am not understanding it. Well first off Jeff's pictures of AK's swing is not an appropriate angle. The camera is not directly behind AK so this will of course skew the "line drawing". At first AK actually reverse tumbles to start the forward swing. Many players do that. Tiger is another. But between P6 and P7 AK rotates his arms. It's late, but if he didn't he'd hozel rocket the ball if he was lucky enough to even hit it at all. He would merely present the neck of the club to the ball. SOMETHING MUST rotate the clubface. For AK most of it is in the forearms. There is a smidgen of upper arm rotation based on where his left elbow points. But here's the funny thing, no one seems to be talking about the purpose of the video. It's not hand action that squares the face. It's arm rotation.
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Post by Ringer on Oct 7, 2010 14:07:12 GMT -5
Ringer, Greg asked the following question-: "So in order to be on plane I assume the "tumble" action means one is below plane at the start the downswing, then "tumbles" to get on plane? You replied-: "In Anthony Kim's swing, yes. However Anthony uses more twist than tumble." Here is Anthony Kim's downswing Where is AK underplane at the start of his downswing? Where is AK employing a tumble action that steepens the clubshaft? I can see no time-point in AK's downswing action where he is i) underplane and I can see ii) no steepening of the clubshaft in AK's early-mid downswing action. You also stated-: "Jeff, ask Brian for the proof of HIS statements. I am not him." However, you also "apparently" believe in the reality of a tumble action - so you should also be able to demonstrate its existence. Jeff. Get a better camera angle of AK's swing then we'll talk.
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Post by Ringer on Oct 7, 2010 14:17:11 GMT -5
Ringer, You referred us to this Chuck Quinton video. CQ is wrong to state that that the left forearm supinatory roll-over action must start to happen from the start of the downswing. If that phenomenon actually happened, then the back of the FLW would become more vertical between P5 and P6, and the clubshaft would steepen. I have never seen that "clubshaft-steepening" phenomenon happen in a good golfer's swing (if he doesn't come OTT). If it actually happens, then it should be readily possible to demonstrate the clubshaft steepening between P5 and P6 - and my challenge remains, post a swing video of any professional golfer performing this "tumble" action between P5 and P6. The irony about CQ's assertion is that he contradicts himself - between 6:00-6:50 minutes he states/demonstrates that the clubshaft must flatten in the mid-downswing (between P5 and P6) and he specifically states that a golfer should not steepen the clubshaft and throw it over-plane. Jeff. First what I find interesting is that you have contradicted yourself previously in this thread as I pointed out. Now you want to say CQ is contradicting himself because he said there is some reverse tumble before there is tumble? Isn't there a backswing before a forward swing? If someone were to say there is a forward swing in the golf swing would you then say they are contradicting themselves because they also say there is a backswing? Your logic is all over the map Jeff.
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Post by nothere on Oct 7, 2010 16:13:26 GMT -5
I would think if the club lays back in a reverse tumble at transition that would need more tumble to get the shaft back on plane or your going to be below plane and hello fat shots and out to the right but could be good for a driver on a tee i wouldn't like it for an iron off the ground.
Isn't this where the d-plane comes in.
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Post by Ringer on Oct 7, 2010 16:41:36 GMT -5
I would think if the club lays back in a reverse tumble at transition that would need more tumble to get the shaft back on plane or your going to be below plane and hello fat shots and out to the right but could be good for a driver on a tee i wouldn't like it for an iron off the ground. Isn't this where the d-plane comes in. I am inclined to agree with you. I also thing the sheer weight and leverage of a longer/heavier club would incline someone to counter rotate just a bit as they start the swing. There is also the question of whether or not the shoulders have begun to open up in the forward swing. If the shoulders start to open it's a lot harder to drop the hands.
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Post by nothere on Oct 7, 2010 16:48:09 GMT -5
I would think if the club lays back in a reverse tumble at transition that would need more tumble to get the shaft back on plane or your going to be below plane and hello fat shots and out to the right but could be good for a driver on a tee i wouldn't like it for an iron off the ground. Isn't this where the d-plane comes in. I am inclined to agree with you. I also thing the sheer weight and leverage of a longer/heavier club would incline someone to counter rotate just a bit as they start the swing. There is also the question of whether or not the shoulders have begun to open up in the forward swing. If the shoulders start to open it's a lot harder to drop the hands. Makes sense. Of course i lack knowledge and have just re-entered from another universe so you have to take that into account..LOL.
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