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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 7, 2010 17:07:00 GMT -5
Nothere,
You wrote-: "I would think if the club lays back in a reverse tumble at transition that would need more tumble to get the shaft back on plane or your going to be below plane and hello fat shots and out to the right but could be good for a driver on a tee i wouldn't like it for an iron off the ground."
Nope.
Ryan Moore uses a reverse tumble action to place his hands/clusbhaft on the TSP. Once the hands/clubshaft are on the inclined plane (TSP), they can simply come down the TSP without ever being underplane. He can also choose to shallow his clubshaft down to the elbow plane during his early-mid downswing - without ever being underplane.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 7, 2010 17:24:12 GMT -5
Ringer - you wrote with respect to AK-: "But between P6 and P7 AK rotates his arms. It's late, but if he didn't he'd hozel rocket the ball if he was lucky enough to even hit it at all. He would merely present the neck of the club to the ball. SOMETHING MUST rotate the clubface."
It's not late. It must happen after the club passes the P6 position. If it occurs prior to the club reaching the 3rd parallel at the P6 position, then the club would rotate over the plane. HK stated that PA#3 release (which is primarily due to a left forearm rotation) must occur in the late downswing - after PA#2 has already started to release.
I have posted photos of Tiger Woods and Aaron Baddeley performing that action.
You also wrote-: " It's not hand action that squares the face. It's arm rotation."
I disagree - it's left forearm rotation (supination) that rotates the left hand, and that action is primarily responsible for squaring the face.
You also wrote-: "First what I find interesting is that you have contradicted yourself previously in this thread as I pointed out."
I have not contradicted myself - even though you choose to misinterpret my posts as being contradictory.
Here is the contents of your reply #42.
----------------------------- Quote:
It is the left forearm rotation (release of PA#3) that squares up the clubface by impact - irrespective of whether one has an arched (ball behind low point), or flat (ball at low point), left wrist at impact.
now...
Quote:
I am arguing that the degree of left wrist arching (degree of forward shaft lean) at impact also affects the clubface angle...
You then wrote-: "Two completely diametrically opposed statements coming from the same guy."
--------------------------------
Those statements are not contradictory and in opposition. The first statement states that the left forearm supination action is responsible for squaring the face - and the degree of rotation (supination) that is required depends on whether the left wrist is arched or flat at impact.
The second statement states that an arched left wrist causes the clubface angle to become more open to the ball-target line - the degree being greater if the degree of forward shaft lean is greater. Under those conditions, the amount of left forearm rotation (supination) needed to square the clubface will vary.
Jeff.
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Post by nothere on Oct 7, 2010 17:45:03 GMT -5
Nothere, You wrote-: "I would think if the club lays back in a reverse tumble at transition that would need more tumble to get the shaft back on plane or your going to be below plane and hello fat shots and out to the right but could be good for a driver on a tee i wouldn't like it for an iron off the ground." Nope. Ryan Moore uses a reverse tumble action to place his hands/clusbhaft on the TSP. Once the hands/clubshaft are on the inclined plane (TSP), they can simply come down the TSP without ever being underplane. He can also choose to shallow his clubshaft down to the elbow plane during his early-mid downswing - without ever being underplane. Jeff. Yes, Jeff. I'm talking about someone who is not on plane but under, they dropped it back under plane. First i wasn't referring to Ryan as he is steep going back thus he drops the club back to get on plane, you just keep on trying to use tour pros who do different things to further your argument i believe most people on this forum are not tour pros and have problems that tour pros don't and tour pros are on tour for a reason and you and i are not. Further more the statement i made was about someone who is dropping the club back because they see someone like Ryan Moore do it and they try it thinking hey he's a tour pro it must be right and what happens is they drop it under the plane and they might not even need to do it in the first place and they are not Ryan Moore, so they need to get that club back on plane. There is all kinds of things that happen to ordinary people and you need to know what those people need to get them back on plane, if it's a plane problem etc. If your under plane you will hit it fat and you will leave shots to the right and you will hook the ball depending on what you do with the face, under means not on plane, get it Jeff, nope i guess not. Ringer told you they all to different degrees use tumble and twist/rotation or whatever terms makes you comfortable. Where's Bill Clinton when you need him?
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Post by nothere on Oct 7, 2010 17:53:05 GMT -5
Here's a problem for you Jeff see if you can solve it, why do tour pros. swing differently, why does Lee Trevino not swing like Kenny Perry? Why do tour pros have different swing planes than other tour pros?, different grips, different setups, are they not perfect examples of perfect swings, which one is "The Model" for us all? Or does it keep changing depending on ..?, why not use Kenny Perry for all your examples?
Your confusing me, one time Ryan Moore next time Tiger, the next time ...? Who do you want me to swing like because all the things that make my swing work for me are wrong according to you. Read Brian's blog, at his forum.
T-21, Not Bad for a Guy Who Can't Bust a Grape....Blog by Brian Manzella
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Post by Ringer on Oct 7, 2010 18:42:38 GMT -5
Nothere, You wrote-: "I would think if the club lays back in a reverse tumble at transition that would need more tumble to get the shaft back on plane or your going to be below plane and hello fat shots and out to the right but could be good for a driver on a tee i wouldn't like it for an iron off the ground." Nope. Ryan Moore uses a reverse tumble action to place his hands/clusbhaft on the TSP. Once the hands/clubshaft are on the inclined plane (TSP), they can simply come down the TSP without ever being underplane. He can also choose to shallow his clubshaft down to the elbow plane during his early-mid downswing - without ever being underplane. Jeff. Yet you still haven't explained how the clubface rotates.
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Post by nothere on Oct 7, 2010 18:46:10 GMT -5
Nothere, You wrote-: "I would think if the club lays back in a reverse tumble at transition that would need more tumble to get the shaft back on plane or your going to be below plane and hello fat shots and out to the right but could be good for a driver on a tee i wouldn't like it for an iron off the ground." Nope. Ryan Moore uses a reverse tumble action to place his hands/clusbhaft on the TSP. Once the hands/clubshaft are on the inclined plane (TSP), they can simply come down the TSP without ever being underplane. He can also choose to shallow his clubshaft down to the elbow plane during his early-mid downswing - without ever being underplane. Jeff. Yet you still haven't explained how the clubface rotates. By Magic. ;D
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Post by Ringer on Oct 7, 2010 18:55:59 GMT -5
Ringer - you wrote with respect to AK-: "But between P6 and P7 AK rotates his arms. It's late, but if he didn't he'd hozel rocket the ball if he was lucky enough to even hit it at all. He would merely present the neck of the club to the ball. SOMETHING MUST rotate the clubface." It's not late. It must happen after the club passes the P6 position. If it occurs prior to the club reaching the 3rd parallel at the P6 position, then the club would rotate over the plane. HK stated that PA#3 release (which is primarily due to a left forearm rotation) must occur in the late downswing - after PA#2 has already started to release. Not necessarily. If you arch the left wrist as you roll the arm, you can keep the original plane while performing a tumble. No, what you have posted is swings from bad camera angles and not listened to a word I've said. There CAN BE COUNTER ROTATION starting the forward swing. I think nothere made an astute observation that it is more likely to happen with the driver than with irons. You are trying to argue that the one "pre-move" before the tumble somehow means there is no tumble at all..... as if there is no forward swing because there is a backswing. It's totally illogical. In fact I would argue that for there to BE a tumble there has to be an "ANTI-tumble" in the backswing or early stages of the forward swing. Do I hear twilight zone music going? Did you just say it's not the arm rotation that squares up the clubface but instead fore ARM rotation that squares up the clubface? Since when is taking TWO DIRECT QUOTES FROM YOU misinterpreting you? I just put them up side by side. People can read very clearly where in one post you say it isn't the arm and then the next post you say it is the arm. Why don't you re-quote your entire passage instead of nixing the contradictory part. Except that you're wrong. It doesn't open the clubface if you ONLY arch the wrist. People have a habit of rolling their forearm as they arch giving you the impression that the arching does the opening. Even assuming you were right about the open clubface due to arch wrist, why would people be saying you should arch the wrist to help close the clubface. The irony is palpable.
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Post by nothere on Oct 7, 2010 19:05:08 GMT -5
You would only leave the face open when arching if you try and hold off the twist. Depending what you do ala d-plane you can still hit a beautiful penetrating straight as an arrow shot.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 7, 2010 20:54:58 GMT -5
Nothere,
You wrote-: "Here's a problem for you Jeff see if you can solve it, why do tour pros. swing differently, why does Lee Trevino not swing like Kenny Perry? Why do tour pros have different swing planes than other tour pros?, different grips, different setups, are they not perfect examples of perfect swings, which one is "The Model" for us all? Or does it keep changing depending on ..?, why not use Kenny Perry for all your examples?"
I cannot use Kenny Perry as an example because he is a hitter (as is Lee Trevino). Most tour pros are swingers, and the mechanics are very different - and I explained the differences in great detail in my 78 minute video lesson (see the relevant thread). A tumble action may be used by a TGM-hitter, but not a TGM-swinger. HK explained the mechanics of TGM swinging in great detail in his TGM book and he demonstrated that a golfer, when using the rope-pulling technique (drag-loading technique), pulls the left hand (and therefore clubshaft) down the inclined plane during the early-mid downswing until he reaches the delivery position (P6). Then he releases PA#2 and PA#3 sequentially. There is no tumble action in a TGM swinger's action, and most tour pros use a TGM swinging technique. I have looked at hundreds of videos of professional golfers' swings and I have never seen a tumble action performed in the mid-downswing (between P5 and P6) by a swinger. If any forum member locates an example - please post the video.
An amateur golfer, who wants to be a TGM-swinger, has to use the same technique. There is no different technique of TGM-swinging for amateurs - the fundamental mechanics of TGM swinging cannot change depending on a golfer's amateur/professional status.
Jeff.
p.s. I will be away on vacation for the next 10 days, so you should be happy to learn that I will probably not post much in the next 10 days - unless I can easily locate a publically-available computer that has an internet connection.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 7, 2010 21:11:16 GMT -5
Ringer - you wrote-: "Not necessarily. If you arch the left wrist as you roll the arm, you can keep the original plane while performing a tumble."
I will believe that "fact" when I see a swing video example of a skilled golfer performing a tumble action using an arched left wrist.
You also wrote-: "Why don't you re-quote your entire passage instead of nixing the contradictory part."
Hmm!
I took the entire contents of your reply #41 without editing-out any parts. You stated that I was being contradictory in that post and you personally chose the two quotes that you stated were contradictory.
Finally, you also wrote-: "Except that you're wrong. It doesn't open the clubface if you ONLY arch the wrist. People have a habit of rolling their forearm as they arch giving you the impression that the arching does the opening."
I guess it's a matter of perception, and you obviously perceive reality very differently to me.
Enjoy the Anti-Summit. I hope that you audio-record any discussion relating to i) push-pull forces/swing-hitting and the ii) tumble action. We could then continue this debate with further input from Anti-Summit attendees.
Jeff.
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Post by nothere on Oct 7, 2010 21:12:55 GMT -5
You have a major problem with your theory what are "The Fundamentals" and who determined this? Why do so called swingers have different grips, setups, planes, shot shapes, etc., etc. and the same for hitters your two examples of hitters are so far apart in technique and mechanics it's not even close, Trevino and Perry how do you reconcile that? and technique and mechanics can definetly be different in the same made up category of TGM, i think you need a vacation.
You have seen lots of examples of all the things you dispute you just don't believe it.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 7, 2010 21:20:00 GMT -5
Nothere,
Different TGM swingers can use a different grip, different ball position, and different combinations of body/arm/hand motions. However, HK stated that there are certain fundamentals that are very characteristic of a TGM swinger - even though there may be many swing pattern variations. You are not obliged to agree with HK, but you may benefit by at least understanding his TGM perspective.
You wrote (prior to your last edit at 9:21pm)-: "Hitting, swinging are made up terms by H.K. with no real proof of their existence."
I guess that statement reflects your personal perspective - although many TGMers would think that it only reflects your considerable ignorance of TGM mechanics/biomechanics.
Jeff.
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Post by nothere on Oct 7, 2010 21:24:49 GMT -5
Nothere, Different TGM swingers can use a different grip, different ball position, and different combinations of body/arm/hand motions. However, HK stated that there are certain fundamentals that are very characteristic of a TGM swinger - even though there may be many swing pattern variations. You are not obliged to agree with HK, but you may benefit by at least understanding his TGM perspective. Jeff. That's the problem it's all from observation by H.K. with no real proof and what makes H.K. the know all be all of golf knowledge, there is plenty of errors in TGM and like you said it's his perspective does not mean he is correct does it.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 7, 2010 21:32:34 GMT -5
Nothere,
You wrote-: "what makes H.K. the know all be all of golf knowledge, there is plenty of errors in TGM and like you said it's his perspective does not mean he is correct does it."
That conclusion is correct - there is no proof that HK is "correct" about golf swing mechanics/biomechanics.
However, you could be making a considerable intellectual contribution to this forum if you first studied TGM mechanics/biomechanics and then secondly demonstrated why you believe that they are "incorrect" - instead of adopting a partisan approach based on a very incomplete understanding of TGM mechanics/biomechanics.
Jeff.
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Post by nothere on Oct 7, 2010 21:34:27 GMT -5
Nothere, Different TGM swingers can use a different grip, different ball position, and different combinations of body/arm/hand motions. However, HK stated that there are certain fundamentals that are very characteristic of a TGM swinger - even though there may be many swing pattern variations. You are not obliged to agree with HK, but you may benefit by at least understanding his TGM perspective. You wrote (prior to your last edit at 9:21pm)-: "Hitting, swinging are made up terms by H.K. with no real proof of their existence." I guess that statement reflects your personal perspective - although many TGMers would think that it only reflects your considerable ignorance of TGM mechanics/biomechanics. Jeff. I corrected that and you know it. Here is a quote from your site, wow and humble too. So there is a perfect swing? QUOTE: However, I am now increasingly confident that my website's visitors will ignore these imperfections and realise that my knowledge of the golf swing far exceeds my ability to execute a perfect golf swing.
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