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Post by jeffy on Nov 30, 2011 20:27:36 GMT -5
Interesting how if one does not know what to look for, one will never see:)
Precisely! That is why, although it may seem like information overload, knowing all the micro moves is so valuable! It is pretty liberating to not always have to guess whether this move or that move is correct, or is missing. I can just watch my swing on video and "see" what pieces are missing or need work. Can't do that with "swing the club and let the body react". How can you possibly know what is right or wrong with that approach?
BTW, I looked at some of the other videos in your youtube channel and, I was right, your daughter IS a genius! A golf AND violin prodigy! You must be the proudest dad in New Jersey.
I live in Manhattan and play at David Glenz's new club in Long Valley, Black Oak Golf Club. It is a great course and I'd be honored to host you and your daughters there any time!
Jeff
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Post by golfdad on Nov 30, 2011 20:54:05 GMT -5
Jeff, I tend to agree with that assessment about knowing the details. In fact i saw your opinion on that earlier. I mean, if someone is starting out, and if i am a teacher, I may dumb it down a bit to get someone going, get confidence high and overlook some issues on purpose and use time and opportunities to get things done accordingly. But with people or kids who are already playing this game and actively trying to get better, I think a teacher owes the student all the pertinent details needed and available, to empower them so that they can truly feel they own their own game. As you guys know full well through playing, this game plays on confidence and confidence is built by having the person honestly knowing the parts of his game, working or not working. Part of us can never lie very well to ourselves in that respect. We can only compensate for so much or so long before we invariably take a hard look at our deficiencies. I admire you guys for this reason because it takes a lot of work and sweat to further understand and retrain, because the margin for error for this game is just so small... Case in point: just with this trial of the more corrected version of the squat, she already related that she felt that her body can go through the ball with more power. Once the brain gets the correct message, often the physicality can come out much sooner than one expects. knowledge is indeed power, as simple as that. It must be very exciting times for you golf nuts with all these high tech fast evolving and pacing your understanding and improvement. It is really the golden age of golf learning where the puzzle board is filling up fast and furious. Hey, thanks for the invite. One day we shall meet up, minus me since I don't play:) My kid seems to have it relative easier when it comes to learning some things. But God is fair in that she has to find passion and determination on her own,,,
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Post by natep on Nov 30, 2011 20:56:30 GMT -5
OK! a little progress report! That looks like an awesome golf basement! Fantastic basement. GD, Looks like your daughter will not have a problem learning this move at all.
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Post by golfdad on Nov 30, 2011 21:10:42 GMT -5
Thanks guys for the comments on the basement. The ceiling is high enough for reckless swinging of clubs, that is about it:)
Unfortunately for the foreseeable months to come, that's where we have to be. Not the same, but hopefully we can work on some things we tend to overlook in the summer months. Probably the body needs a break as well.
indoor putting without varying gradients adds to this false sense of having practiced putting:)
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Post by lia41985 on Dec 5, 2011 0:41:10 GMT -5
Jeff, Kelvin, in his article talks about how golfers like Sadlowski hold their right leg in external rotation and go bow-legged when squatting. Kelvin's put up some nice face-on pictures of this phenomenon and as such, I found it to be a persuasive observational theory. However, take a look at this down-the-line sequence of Jamie: www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mqGYlh1jjgFrom this angle it seems that when the left leg goes into external rotation that there's a consequent internal rotation of the right leg. I would ask Kelvin personally but the last time I e-mailed him he responded in a rude fashion. So if you know, could you please answer my question or perhaps pass it along to Kelvin? Thanks. golfdad, As Jeff said, you're daughter is a great mimic. However, I think this "bow-legged squat" move may be an inaccurate description. Also, while I'm sure that these "micro moves" take concerted practice, your daughter's execution is very contrived but that is no fault of her own. Trying to learn something that's "actually" occurring and "desirable" may require "exaggerated feels" but the contrivance she's demonstrating may not be desirable because it's my contention that this phenomenon isn't actually occurring. We'll have to wait and see what Jeff reports. Also, I wanted to say that in terms of the way she uses her hands and arms on the backswing--don't ever change it! Rohlio, Thanks for your explanation about the left knee.
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Post by golfdad on Dec 5, 2011 7:38:21 GMT -5
lia, you have a raised a good point because that is something that I go back and forth in my mind frequently, whenever I--I know as much as a bad recorder--introduce something to try to my kids.
To start, they are the type that can reverse back to their "old" swing very quickly if they announce that "my" idea does not work. Such a routine occurs frequently. So this squat thing is definitely in progress and have not been tested outdoor hitting balls with a camera that I can see more clearly.
I consider Kelvin as a very good reverse engineering guy where his observational skills are strong. But a basic question remains to be determined,,,at least in my family's case,,,that is, whether we can pick out moves by the elites and instill into my kids. Even if so, how. There is really no quick and ready answer for that.
On one hand, it may not be logical that an average joe (or janes in this case) can borrow just one item from a superbly trained athlete and makes it work on the average joe. The movements are dynamic so a different spare part may or may not work.
On the other hand, are there certain moves that are indeed inherently universal across all golfers and it is latent inside each of us? So that with some prompting, one simply has to uncover instead of discover? Conceivable, Perhaps, May be...
So to be honest, to follow the above 2 lines of reasoning, I still don't know. And for the most part, I think that is possibly the biggest obstacle or dilemma facing most of the golf students. The more we know, the more confusing and overwhelming it may seem. How to add another piece to the growing pile does not come with instructions or warnings:)
What my kid did, after her first failed attempt, after I read Kelvin's article more carefully (after jeffy's urging and feedback), after I explained to her what is a combination of hip abduction, hip ext rotation and hip flexion, is a quick picture in her head without much processing,,,,oh, you mean a ballet move and let me show you. That is her aha moment.
To think about it, this squat move is not out of our physiological norm. When we squat, we never squat with the 2 knees next to each other. Without much instruction, we spread apart the knees a little and then go down---that is hip abd, hip ext rot and hip flex all in one, right there. And when we come up,,,it is essentially a reverse, hip add, hip int rot and hip ext.
But a worthy question is what you may have hinted, that is, in what sequence or timing or setup does one introduce/incorporate this move? One poster earlier (if i remember correctly) pointed out that is it possible that the squat move is in reaction to other sequences and not necessarily an active addition to the existing chain of action?
I DON'T KNOW:)
but suffices it to say, my interest and curiosity is high and we will continue to explore and feel and observe on how it develops outdoor hitting real balls. When i get my slow mo camera and go on holiday break, we will follow up more.
Thanks and appreciate your thoughts.
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Post by lia41985 on Dec 5, 2011 11:11:06 GMT -5
golfdad, The squat move you describe may not actually even be occuring that way! That's what I'm trying to tell you! So don't worry about reversion or whatever. Kelvin talks about "holding the right leg in external rotation while the left leg also externally rotates." However, from the down the line view of Sadlowski, it's clear to me that he's not at all "holding" the right leg in external rotation. The right leg undergoes internal rotation simultaneously with the left leg undergoing external rotaiton and any "holding" of the right leg being mistakenly observed in a face-on view is actually Sadlowski's leg going from extension to flexion (the right knee bends more) as the right leg internally rotates, again, simultaneously with the external rotation of the left leg. If anything, have your daughter setup in a stance with a width that's comfortable for her to swing as hard as she wants, and this maybe narrower than some will have you believe, and see what happens when she turns both toes out at address. Like in a proper squat, you want the knees to track the toes so her knees should "point" in the same direction as her toes. From there, don't let her get on her left side too fast. If she wants the "look" that Kelvin and Jeff are so enamored with, she could probably achieve it by letting her right knee straighten some on the backswing and the consequent movement of that knee from extension to flexion will help to achieve that "held" appearance. If you look at the down-the-line video of Sadlowski that I posted you'll see that what's occuring isn't what Jeff and Kelvin are saying. Video, especially from a solitary angle, lies.
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Post by lia41985 on Dec 5, 2011 11:13:36 GMT -5
Yep, Kelvin and Jeff are wrong. Look at this down the line video of Sadlowski, wearing shorts, so we can see what the legs, especially the knees, are doing better. www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBZGiSAiEbMThere's no "holding" of the right leg in the fashion that Kelvin and Jeff are describing. And here's another view: www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU6vNF03dYcThis "holding" phenomenon is merely the right leg going from extension to flexion as it internally rotates at the same time that the left leg externally rotates. Kelvin has "found" this move in Sadlowski, young Nicklaus, and Snead. Guess what? Those three let the right knee extend a bunch on the backswing. Kelvin didn't "find" this move in Hogan. Hogan, although he let his right leg externally rotate on the backswing, limited the extension of the right knee on the backswing. I wonder how many more micro moves I can go back and double check? It'll have to wait but after this little study it's definitely something I'll try and get to.
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Post by golfdad on Dec 5, 2011 11:39:24 GMT -5
Lia, I am not much of a golf study person, but on the issue you have raised, I disagree:) But I love your approach,,,can't stand anyone's word for it!
First of all, a perfectly set up DTL view is actually not a good way to appreciate right hip ext rotation. The best view is frontal straight on, imo. But the clips you have provided is not pure DTL so I can still appreciate that in fact Sad was doing ext hip rot.
Before we go further, let's first review some basic definition.
ext rot of the right hip is in reference to a baseline neutral position when the right hip is next to the left in the mid line, so basically standing with 2 feet together, 2 knees together, and that is the starting point.
From Sad's address position, not even talking about what he does later in the downswing, his right hip is already in abduction, flexion and ext rotation (he points his toe outward). And when he comes down swing, this ext rot of the right hip becomes more prominent at one point, and then the hip goes to the neutral direction and eventually finish in internal rotation at finish.
Do you agree with the above?
Oh Lia, I agree with my kid's going into left too early, a point Jeffy also raised earlier. On that both of you concur (hey may be both are wrong, just kidding:) We will follow up on that. thanks!
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Post by lia41985 on Dec 5, 2011 11:48:14 GMT -5
golfdad, The right leg isn't being "held" in external rotation as Kelvin and Jeff describe. It's just not happening. The right leg begins internal rotating at the same time the left leg is externally rotating. Any appearance that implies a "holding" move is the right knee moving from extension to flexion as the right leg internally rotates from a position of maximal external rotation. This is clear in the last two video I posted of Sadlowski. I'm afraid that this is something your daughter will struggle to implement because it's contrary to what's actually happening. I'd advise against it. Those who are claimed to model this micro move aren't even doing it.
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Post by golfdad on Dec 5, 2011 12:00:24 GMT -5
Ok, Lia, in this video at 50-51', at least to me, that is the moment when both hips are in the said position
I agree with you that "held" needs to be clarified...
One way for me to put it another way is to think of flipping open a thick phone book. the half i flipped and turned is the left hip and the side remained on the table is the right hip, thus it held on.
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Post by lia41985 on Dec 5, 2011 12:31:20 GMT -5
golfdad,
Nothing is being held. Three phenomena occur simultaneously:
1.) Right knee moves from extension to flexion. 2.) Right leg internally rotates (from a position of maximal external rotation) 3.) Left leg extenrally rotates (from a position of maximal internal rotation)
Your daughter shouldn't be trying to go bow-legged. If this is something that is being pursued in order to mimic a certain person's observational theory it needs to not be pursued because the theory is wrong. The proponent of the theory can't even come up with an explanation in response to a critique. Be very wary of who you follow for teaching advice. I wish you and your daughter, sincerely, all of the very best. Clearly you are passionate about golf and she has a great attitude. I'm just trying to help any way I can.
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Post by golfdad on Dec 5, 2011 12:37:10 GMT -5
Appreciate that Lia, I know you meant well all along anyway. In a previous post I have covered my thinking on this as well, in terms of what is what sequencing wise, or causality wise.
What you have listed, the 3 items, imo is part of the sequence. But we are disagreeing on perhaps is the timing aspect...
Thanks!
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Post by jeffy on Dec 5, 2011 12:48:07 GMT -5
golfdad, The right hip isn't being "held" in external rotation as Kelvin and Jeff describe. It's just not happening. We did not say it was "held" in external rotation. The right hip is in internal rotation at the top of the backswing, then moves to external rotation in transition, at the same time as the right knee flexes. That creates the bow-legged "squat" look. To get the squat-look, particularly if you were taught to drive the right knee toward the target at the start of the downswing, you may need to feel that the right knee "holds" for a slpit second as it goes into flexion. In my case, I started to get it when the right knee flexed AWAY from the target. If the right hip simply stays in internal rotation and the player drives the right knee, you get a swing that looks like Ross Fisher: No squat. BTW, this is all laid out in this article: www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2011-04-whats-a-hip-turn-part-2.htmlPerhaps you need to read it again. Jeff
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Post by walther on Dec 5, 2011 12:49:50 GMT -5
Lia -- I don't see right leg/knee internal rotation from P4 to P6. There is not a fixed reference point for the right knee. While we can observe the right knee moving laterally toward the target from the face on view I believe the right knee can stay in external rotation as the left side and the pelvis unwind.
w
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