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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Dec 12, 2011 12:25:05 GMT -5
If you would like me to move this thread to the 'My Swing' folder, I can. I just thought that we could keep it here so people don't lose track of it. It's an interesting thread to say the least... 3JACK Thanks Richie! That would be perfect. |
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Dec 12, 2011 12:34:25 GMT -5
Hey guys, I feel the need to apologize here because a lot if the response I see are getting really personal, but I just don't understand why. Maybe there were some things going on before I posted here. I don't want to cause any fellow golfers to come to blows.
Lol, We're all crazed idiots for getting addicted to this unconquerable game in the first place. But, errrr, ummmmm, based on my project, and my wifes opinion, I'm the most crazed.
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Post by cloran on Dec 12, 2011 12:39:01 GMT -5
I'm not one to drag out a debate... so...
I apologize to Otto and Hoganproject... I will continue to read this thread and help out if I am able to somehow.
Welcome aboard Otto, please do not take my critisism as being representative of the forum at large. You are indeed welcome here and I look forward to your participation.
Welcome aboard Hoganproject... your journey owes no justification to me and I honestly wish you nothing but the best of luck. You are well on your way and making great progress based upon the videos I have seen, and I am in no position to say otherwise. Surely it has taken lots of effort and time to get to this point and I can certainly appreciate that.
-Cloran
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Post by jeffy on Dec 12, 2011 12:49:07 GMT -5
hogan- Some more comments: At this point in the downswing, Hogan has more "right elbow move", a combination of external rotation of the right shoulder (rotation of the upper right arm away from the body, or clockwise) plus right arm transverse adduction (moving the right elbow toward the center of the body). As a consequence of these moves, Hogan's right elbow is just above his right pants pocket, while yours is a few inches back: more "behind" you in a stuck position.  In the next two pictures we can see how, by keeping your spine straight in the downswing, you've come over the top a bit and your right shoulder is so much higher. Also, you released too soon by not retaining the external rotation in your right shoulder deep enough in the downswing, which let your right arm go into internal rotation too early (upper arm rotating toward the body, or counter-clockwise) and extending. You can also see more curve in the base of Hogan's spine, meaning he has maintained lumbar lordosis. Right side lateral bend and lumbar lordosis engages the spine "gears" in the downswing, allowing the whole body to turn through as a single unit without the hips decoupling and spinning out.  Another view that shows how much more right side lateral bend Hogan has in his spine compared to you, and how that move combined with lumbar lordosis has enabled him to to turn through more.  Jeff |
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Dec 12, 2011 13:04:26 GMT -5
hogan- Some more comments: At this point in the downswing, Hogan has more "right elbow move", a combination of external rotation of the right shoulder (rotation of the upper right arm away from the body, or clockwise) plus right arm transverse adduction (moving the right elbow toward the center of the body). As a consequence of these moves, Hogan's right elbow is just above his right pants pocket, while yours is a few inches back: more "behind" you in a stuck position. In the next two pictures we can see how, by keeping your spine straight in the downswing, you've come over the top a bit and your right shoulder is so much higher. Also, you released too soon by not retaining the external rotation in your right shoulder deep enough in the downswing, which let your right arm go into internal rotation too early (upper arm rotating toward the body, or counter-clockwise) and extending. You can also see more curve in the base of Hogan's spine, meaning he has maintained lumbar lordosis. Right side lateral bend and lumbar lordosis engages the spine "gears" in the downswing, allowing the whole body to turn through as a single unit without the hips decoupling and spinning out. Another view that shows how much more right side lateral bend Hogan has in his spine compared to you, and how that move combined with lumbar lordosis has enabled him to to turn through more. Jeff Thanks Jeff! Your comments are understood and well-taken, but you are speaking if my "Take 1" vid from July. I have some more up to date ones. I'm at Take 13 now. Although, not much has changed, but in beginning to understand a few of the mechanical things. I have a few of my own comments on the actual YouTube page under this vid. We have about the same views about my swing vs hogans. |
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Post by jeffy on Dec 12, 2011 13:09:35 GMT -5
I remember someone telling me that I should focus on Hogans concentraton drills in order to gain a better understanding of his mechanics. They were right. From the address, to takeaway, to "the top", regular swing vs concentration are spot on. This should be all I need to master this part of the swing. Regular swing is on the left. Concentration drill is on the right. hogan- Notice how quickly Hogan moves the right elbow down and in during transition: the only fast move. Maybe it's important? You can se the same thing in this 1950s version of the concentration drill: Also, the "elbow move" shows up pretty good in this clip (with guest star Moe Norman!): Jeff |
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Post by jeffy on Dec 12, 2011 13:37:25 GMT -5
The cloudy part is when people say "how" hogan is doing them, because no one knows. Statements like "as you can see in the hogan video, he is clearly suppinating the left wrist to come into impact in a bowed position."hogan- This is nonsense! Anyone that has read Kelvin's articles on the "Tiger release" or has followed his instructions for the Impact Snap Device knows EXACTLY "how" Hogan was doing it. His anatomy isn't different from anyone else's. The fact that Hogan had a weak grip and pointed his left elbow at his hip at address just complicated things more than necessary. Those address positions, plus the cup at the top (when he was cupping: he really toned it down after the accident), got the clubface very open at the top relative to address. So, in the downswing, to square the face back up, he had to 1) rotate the forearms counterclockwise (pronate the right forearm and supinate the left forearm; 2) externally rotate the left shoulder (rotate the left upper arm counterclockwise); 3) go into flexion of the left wrist (bow or arch) and extension of the right wrist (bend back) - this move added stability to the counter-clockwise rotation of the arms; and 4) go into ulnar deviation of the wrists (pull the left pinky up and point the club head down), also adding stability. No wonder he had to practice all the time! Also, if you haven't heard this tidbit, later in life his woods were built "at least 2* shut", according to Tom Wishon who inspected Hogan's clubs and discussed the specs with Hogan's personal clubmaker, Gene Sheely. Hogan's weak grip was even too weak for Hogan! Jeff PS: Some homework: www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2009-11-micro-move-of-tigers-release.htmlwww.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2010-09-pga-tour-release-styles.htmlwww.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2011-09-pga-tour-grip-styles-part-2-continued.html
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Dec 12, 2011 19:19:14 GMT -5
The cloudy part is when people say "how" hogan is doing them, because no one knows. Statements like "as you can see in the hogan video, he is clearly suppinating the left wrist to come into impact in a bowed position."hogan- This is nonsense! Anyone that has read Kelvin's articles on the "Tiger release" or has followed his instructions for the Impact Snap Device knows EXACTLY "how" Hogan was doing it. His anatomy isn't different from anyone else's. The fact that Hogan had a weak grip and pointed his left elbow at his hip at address just complicated things more than necessary. Those address positions, plus the cup at the top (when he was cupping: he really toned it down after the accident), got the clubface very open at the top relative to address. So, in the downswing, to square the face back up, he had to 1) rotate the forearms counterclockwise (pronate the right forearm and supinate the left forearm; 2) externally rotate the left shoulder (rotate the left upper arm counterclockwise); 3) go into flexion of the left wrist (bow or arch) and extension of the right wrist (bend back) - this move added stability to the counter-clockwise rotation of the arms; and 4) go into ulnar deviation of the wrists (pull the left pinky up and point the club head down), also adding stability. No wonder he had to practice all the time! Also, if you haven't heard this tidbit, later in life his woods were built "at least 2* shut", according to Tom Wishon who inspected Hogan's clubs and discussed the specs with Hogan's personal clubmaker, Gene Sheely. Hogan's weak grip was even too weak for Hogan! Jeff PS: Some homework: www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2009-11-micro-move-of-tigers-release.htmlwww.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2010-09-pga-tour-release-styles.htmlwww.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2011-09-pga-tour-grip-styles-part-2-continued.html Thanks for the homework. I'll look into. The "2 degrees shut" is an eyeopener! I've only heard how Hogans clubs were bent wide open. I know a bunch of Hogan junkies that would be ready to throw rocks at you lol. Now where we are not on the same page is where you mention everything that Hogan was doing. I agree in what it appeared that he was doing, but I still don't know HOW. I say this because unlike many people think, there are a lot of guys that have tried to understand and break down the Hogan dynamic so as to apply it to their swing. If it were as simple as you typed, this challenge would be no fun, and there would be a whole bunch of guys hitting it like Hogan. And I say hitting it like Hogan based on many discussion I have heard regarding him being one of the best ballstrikers ever. I wasn't there to witness, but this legend stil floats about today. |
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Post by tba on Dec 12, 2011 20:46:08 GMT -5
I haven't read all of the thread yet but I will as I find this journey of yours fascinating, it's quite the task to copy someone like Hogan, many have tried and failed but it's the journey that's interesting as a spectator. Not too many opportunities to actually see someone's progress this way, keep up the good work, I for one hope you make it to where your happy with the results.
Good Luck, Henny Bogan.
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Post by jeffy on Dec 12, 2011 21:20:53 GMT -5
hogan-
It is simple once you figure it out; as Hogan said, the "secret" was easy to see if "you know where to look" (from the 1955 Life Magazine article). I don't think the "others" you talk about "know where to look" as far as the release goes.
Why don't you at least TRY it the way I suggest first? Might save you a year or two!
Jeff
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Dec 12, 2011 22:18:33 GMT -5
hogan- It is simple once you figure it out; as Hogan said, the "secret" was easy to see if "you know where to look" (from the 1955 Life Magazine article). I don't think the "others" you talk about "know where to look" as far as the release goes. Why don't you at least TRY it the way I suggest first? Might save you a year or two! Jeff Lol, whew, that time-savings would be great! But, I have tried what you have said. It is close to what I'm looking for, but has many holes. I'm comparing the swings side-by-side, from all angles. FO, DTL, FL, Rear, Overhead, etc. I've broken the swing down a lot, and have experimented with all sorts of things. I've noted which ones get me the closest. Right now, I'm still experimenting........soon, I'll have enough data to start ruling things out, then focusing on an action plan. If you look at the title of most of my vids, they say "experimenting." I'm doing a few different things in each vid, some that no one can even notice. I'll be sure to get back into what you are suggesting soon. |
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Post by kamandi on Dec 12, 2011 22:20:24 GMT -5
Ben Hogan Swing Project, if you wanted to, you could capture your DTL and FO views of your swing with a camera that can capture 200 fps, then you can send it for consultation (they'll probably charge you) to slicefixer and sevam1. slicefixers students have a very hoganesque swing, while few people probably have studied the Hogan swing more than sevam1. I don't know if they do video reply consultation, but if they do, you can leapfrog your development. There are some things that just aren't evident in grainy Hogan video, and some moves that are so subtle that they're hard to notice, but affect the swing greatly. If you can get personal lessons, that will probably put you to overdrive. Nice looking swing, btw. 
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Dec 12, 2011 22:24:29 GMT -5
hogan- It is simple once you figure it out; as Hogan said, the "secret" was easy to see if "you know where to look" (from the 1955 Life Magazine article). I don't think the "others" you talk about "know where to look" as far as the release goes. Why don't you at least TRY it the way I suggest first? Might save you a year or two! Jeff Also, what I am trying to train myself on is not just the release. It's the whole swing. The head movement during address, the loaded/straight right leg during upswing/at the top, the transition. I'm really not ready for the release part of it. I still haven't gotten past the takeaway. I have yet to find a video of Hogan from DTL with a clear view of his wrists during the takeaway; right at the point when they get about hip high. Can't tell if left wrist is going watchface to the sky, or watchface towards the ground. In Hogans concentration vids, it appears to be going skyward, but in the full speed, appears to be going the opposite. |
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Dec 12, 2011 22:39:17 GMT -5
Ben Hogan Swing Project, if you wanted to, you could capture your DTL and FO views of your swing with a camera that can capture 200 fps, then you can send it for consultation (they'll probably charge you) to slicefixer and sevam1. slicefixers students have a very hoganesque swing, while few people probably have studied the Hogan swing more than sevam1. I don't know if they do video reply consultation, but if they do, you can leapfrog your development. There are some things that just aren't evident in grainy Hogan video, and some moves that are so subtle that they're hard to notice, but affect the swing greatly. If you can get personal lessons, that will probably put you to overdrive. Nice looking swing, btw. Yep. Gotcha. Once I've driven myself crazy, and my wife out of here (lol, that's a joke in case she ever reads this), I do have that as a last resort. But I did also explain in an older post that all my failures and exploration is kinda fun. I'm learning soooooo much about the complexeties of the swing. If I all-of-a-sudden get to the answer, I'm gonna be bored lol! |
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Post by Ben Hogan Swing Project on Dec 13, 2011 23:25:13 GMT -5
I don't know much about Moe Norman, but the guy here looks close.
I can just hear a doubter saying "Moe Norman was the best ball striker EVER. Nobody can or will ever get close to swinging like him."
Why not the same for the Hogan swing?? Now where the heck is Hogan's best pupil hiding??
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