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Post by rohlio on Apr 11, 2012 21:37:59 GMT -5
How about having a real golfer play the game for you guys? troll much?
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Post by playa on Apr 11, 2012 22:19:47 GMT -5
People change with time and practice. During one session, someone may be determined to have a rightward or leftward aim and be diagnosed as such. Where is the evidence that the person will continue with such tendencies going forward? Are there serial studies by Edel documenting this? If there are, don't you all should have heard them by now? If not, should there be? What if one year later, the aim has changed but the player does not know...? How can this one moment in time be forever???
I saw a video of a fitting session on Youtube. The player stands at a distance being evaluated. Is the player evaluated at multiple distances to see if the "wrong" aim is consistent and more importantly, correspondingly so (think geometry)?
It seems that many have reported boosted confidence after getting the Edel putter and some even claim that because of the boosted confidence or "better aim" they have putted better. Makes a lot of sense, but are there hard core documentation on this? Any published follow up studies? Is the effect temporary or long term? Do we consider the effect of placebo in this setup?
Some of you have tailor made suits, but how many of you have tailor made shirts since they are readily available and most likely fit your bodies better? Just asking!
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Post by playa on Apr 11, 2012 22:25:10 GMT -5
How about having a real golfer play the game for you guys? troll much? If I grace you with an answer, then Richi may blame me for being rude to you.
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Post by rohlio on Apr 12, 2012 0:06:48 GMT -5
If I grace you with an answer, then Richi may blame me for being rude to you. Regardless of what Richie chooses to blame you for, I think you were quite rude to many of the other posters with your original comment. I assure you that several of those who have posted their satisfaction with Edel products are quite adequately "real players". Be as rude as you like to me your opinion is worth exactly what I paid for it. You are certainly mistaken if you think you have "graced" any of us with anything.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Apr 12, 2012 8:12:34 GMT -5
People change with time and practice. During one session, someone may be determined to have a rightward or leftward aim and be diagnosed as such. Where is the evidence that the person will continue with such tendencies going forward? Are there serial studies by Edel documenting this? If there are, don't you all should have heard them by now? If not, should there be? What if one year later, the aim has changed but the player does not know...? How can this one moment in time be forever??? I saw a video of a fitting session on Youtube. The player stands at a distance being evaluated. Is the player evaluated at multiple distances to see if the "wrong" aim is consistent and more importantly, correspondingly so (think geometry)? It seems that many have reported boosted confidence after getting the Edel putter and some even claim that because of the boosted confidence or "better aim" they have putted better. Makes a lot of sense, but are there hard core documentation on this? Any published follow up studies? Is the effect temporary or long term? Do we consider the effect of placebo in this setup? Some of you have tailor made suits, but how many of you have tailor made shirts since they are readily available and most likely fit your bodies better? Just asking! I have boosted confidence because my clubs fit me! If you need a study to figure out what fits you than fitted clubs probably won't help you. I can see and feel the different strikes with Edel vs. my other wedges (which were close, but nowhere near as good as Edel). The Edel wedges are about fitting the bounce to the attack angle, not about alignment (that's the putter). Just admit that you made an idiotic statement and move on. BTW - I need, buy and wear tailored shirts and suits. Tom James!
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Post by Richie3Jack on Apr 12, 2012 8:18:27 GMT -5
I’ve spoken to David Edel a couple of times along with Bobby Dean and Rick Hayes.
David has done a great deal of research on aiming putters and how the shape and putter features affect golfers. I know he’s done research in how distance affects golfer’s aim along with the slope of the green.
Back at the 2011 PGA Merchandise Show, I asked David about why I have always putted much better on left-to-right breaking putts despite being right handed. He gave me a fairly detailed response discussing the orientation of the eyes along with the slope of the green can alter the aim for golfers.
From what I gathered, if you have an aim bias from 6 feet away, that aim bias almost always becomes larger the further you get away from the cup. So a 3-inch right aim bias from 6-feet away may wind up being a 18-inch right aim bias from 15 feet away. And from what I gather, typically the aim bias is the same throughout the green. So if you have a right aim bias from 6-feet away, you’re probably not likely to get a left-aim bias on a different putt.
As far as publishing research goes, David does run a business so I would imagine his research information is proprietary. He’s not a golf swing instructor trying to get their theories validated. I’m in a similar position as David as my Pro Golf Synopsis utilizes statistical theories, but I’m not going to publish those theories and formulas because it’s proprietary information. Somebody could simply utilize my formulas for themselves and run off with them. Same with David and his research.
I don’t find the putters to be like a Rodney Dangerfield type putter in Caddyshack and doing the work for you. Many of the designs are fairly similar to other designs on the market. Maybe there’s a different hosel shape or a differently placed alignment line or sight-dot. But, we do know that there are golfers who can aim some putters dead on versus aiming some putters way off. So I don’t see a real difference between somebody getting an Edel putter and now aiming well versus somebody who goes thru a bunch of putters from the OEM’s and finds one that ‘fits their eye.’
3JACK
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Post by iacas on Apr 12, 2012 12:16:34 GMT -5
During one session, someone may be determined to have a rightward or leftward aim and be diagnosed as such. Where is the evidence that the person will continue with such tendencies going forward? Are there serial studies by Edel documenting this? Yes. Ask him. I'm not at liberty to share his information (which he has shared with me). I consider it "his" information so I'm not going to assume I can share it. Is the player evaluated at multiple distances to see if the "wrong" aim is consistent and more importantly, correspondingly so (think geometry)? It likely depends on the fitter. We evaluate to several targets, including breaking putts and several distances.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Apr 12, 2012 12:23:41 GMT -5
playa -
These putters aren't fit in a vacuum. The process usually takes 1-1.5 hours. It took about 45-55 minutes to get my putter fitted and another 20-30 on the putting green putting at various targets and various distances. The weight of the putter also gets fitted.
People can still putt great with stock putters. But, if you want to break through and putt even better, you need a putter that fits.
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Post by kamandi on Apr 12, 2012 12:59:13 GMT -5
Drop kick? No. Slide under and let the bounce do the work, yes. It's like with a bunker shot, without the sand. It's not uncommon to use the trailing part of a clubhead to affect how you hit the ball. In Shawn Clement's style of hitting fairway woods by skimming the ground before the ball, he says that what skims is the back part of the wood's clubhead. Exactly SLIDE under...not bounce up into the ball. I hit that shot all the time and if you would like I will put it on video to prove it. You use the bounce to keep the leading edge from digging and stopping, by laying the face open to expose the bounce angle on the sole. On hard turf the clubhead can indeed bounce up when you smack the flange onto the ground, in fact that is why it is called "Bounce angle", but if you execute the shot correctly the ball is long gone before the club head bounces up. Even if it did influence it you are talking about a net vertical force that is so low compared to the force of the deflected forward velocity of the clubhead as to be laughable. Anybody who has played out of bunkers in Hawaii can tell you what happens when your wedge does bounce up from the ground because you went in too far behind the ball into hardpack, you blade it ( which is why I never blast out of bankers on the islands and just play regular pitches). I use the trailing part of my wedge all the time and its ground interaction. Sometimes I even intentionally use the feeling that Phil is talking about. The reason that shot comes off so high is because when you open the face and slide under it you are getting an effective loft of like 80* (the angle of deflection is why you need to swing so hard to make it go anywhere), not because of added vertical force from the head rebounding up into the ball. That sounds like a real good, sound explanation, and I am considering it, but I'm just not convinced. I'm not trying to be argumentative though, LOL! I'm thinking of other factors, like the ball compressing/flattening against the face, which means it doesn't immediately leave the face. Also, 2 conditions with the same swing ... in the first, the club digs but a full follow through is executed, and in the 2nd, the cub digs but gets caught in the ground, so that a follow through isn't executed. Theoretically, they both leave the face immediately, but they will both have differing ball flights, which leads me to believe that the ball stays on the face for quite some time, enough that maybe bounce can affect a ball's flight. No matter, you gave a real, sound reason which most likely is correct, but I still believe Mickelson, LOL! Cheers.
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Post by playa on Apr 12, 2012 15:54:32 GMT -5
Let me clarify: I was referring to Edel putter, not wedges.
Thanks for the info, but one of my questions is not answered, which is, if a person is fitted with a putter to correct an alignment issue, is the person followed up in the future to see if the correction is still needed?
If iacas provides this service, do you make them come back at intervals in the future to make sure what was done at one time still holds true?
To me this is big deal!
Another line of question will be: does a beginner's aim problem be regarded similarly as a 60 yo hacker who just want to have less headache with putting?
Would you go up to a high school or college level player and coin him to have a permanent alignment problem and correct this problem by giving a putter that addresses this issue? By giving this young person such a putter, does it mean we hope the young person continue to do well with crooked alignment but never try to address the fundamental issue which is: to accurately and truly train his alignment which was probably never done in the first place?
It is not as simple as it may seem, is it not?
I think real players need to deal with problems with more courage and dedication. Personally, particularly if research are kept in the black box, I feel the Edel putting evaluation and Rx is a patch for a problem that is yet to be determined to be fixable or not. By fixable I mean to learn to align correct through training processes. I don't consider the putter to be a fix, but a patch. Real dedicated players who want to get to the bottom of this issue imo should not and would not settle that easily.
Of course it is a free world that people do whatever they please. From those I know personally that have been fitted, they don't putt better. They just don't.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Apr 12, 2012 16:17:38 GMT -5
playa -
I think it's up to the student to come back. You can still putt well with incorrect alignment and a regular off the rack putter.
However, after knowing that you line up incorrectly, would you still want to putt that way? I don't. This putter, IMO, gives me the best chance at correct alignment. I might even have growing pains, but I'm willing to push through such pains.
There is a level of risk in everything and if you can find a putter that you love maybe you don't need to get an Edel. Of course, maybe you could still putt better!
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Post by playa on Apr 12, 2012 16:24:06 GMT -5
playa - I think it's up to the student to come back. You can still putt well with incorrect alignment and a regular off the rack putter. However, after knowing that you line up incorrectly, would you still want to putt that way? I don't. This putter, IMO, gives me the best chance at correct alignment. I might even have growing pains, but I'm willing to push through such pains. There is a level of risk in everything and if you can find a putter that you love maybe you don't need to get an Edel. Of course, maybe you could still putt better! That is not the point I am getting at. IF someone is labelled as a rightward 2 degree, how long does that label stick with the person? You don't know this unless there is a regimen out there to make sure people come back frequently enough for data collection. Otherwise, anything goes!
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Post by iacas on Apr 12, 2012 17:14:50 GMT -5
Thanks for the info, but one of my questions is not answered, which is, if a person is fitted with a putter to correct an alignment issue, is the person followed up in the future to see if the correction is still needed? David Edel has a good bit of information on this, including information about the main guy at a prestigious club which hosts a PGA Tour event. He gets fit for a putter every time he sees David and he keeps fitting into the same putter. If iacas provides this service, do you make them come back at intervals in the future to make sure what was done at one time still holds true? Most of our people are our regular students or friends. We routinely see them, and they continue to line up accurately. Give them my putter, too, and they'll continue to line it up the same way and just as poorly. Another line of question will be: does a beginner's aim problem be regarded similarly as a 60 yo hacker who just want to have less headache with putting? Most beginners don't spend $350+ on a putter. Would you go up to a high school or college level player and coin him to have a permanent alignment problem and correct this problem by giving a putter that addresses this issue? By giving this young person such a putter, does it mean we hope the young person continue to do well with crooked alignment but never try to address the fundamental issue which is: to accurately and truly train his alignment which was probably never done in the first place? I don't know that you can truly "train" proper alignment. If you're a right-aimer you do so because when square, the putter "looks" closed to you. So you open it up. Why "train" that - and have to constantly make sure the training has stuck - when you can build a putter that you line up properly from day one and never have to worry about. People who aim right tend to roll the face shut a lot (Tiger). They can putt well on the days they time this, and poorly on the days they don't. Properly fit, they'll tend to start to pull their first 50 or 100 putts, but then they'll adjust and not roll the face so much and will start the ball on-line. If putting is three parts (proper green reading being one of them), the Edel helps with the other two: distance control and starting the ball on-line. If you're not starting the ball on-line, at your read, then removing "the putter isn't lined up properly" as a variable allows you to work on your stroke. A lot of people are using putters they aim properly and trying to build tough-to-repeat compensations for their aim bias. From those I know personally that have been fitted, they don't putt better. They just don't. I do. Particularly on the short putts inside of 10 feet. AimPoint + Edel: there's a reason they've paired up. I know someone who would three- and even four-putt from as short as two or three feet. He hasn't missed inside of three feet in who knows how long now now. Distance control is better, start lines are better. Putting is still hard. I doubt that statistically you can track it, because the third factor is still getting a good read. Richie putts better now, I believe. I do - I've kept stats.
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Post by gmbtempe on Apr 12, 2012 17:25:05 GMT -5
Putting is the most overrated statistic in the game for the mid handicapper, and honestly as pieces of the golf game go I think its the easiest.
sorry to jack but saw the putting hard comment and it stuck out.
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Post by playa on Apr 12, 2012 19:01:00 GMT -5
Thank you iacas for your candor. Appreciate your replies.
In addition, I am particularly interested in this line of yours "I don't know that you can truly "train" proper alignment." I think this is an area that needs to be explored much more. My assertion is that it can be trained, or at least improved upon, just that we have not come up with more effective training tools. We humans have many innate tendencies and I think for the most part, they can be modified or changed.
Not trying to be funny but imagine in a gun shop they will test people's aim as well and then sell people guns with different aiming mechanism, under the logo: point sideways to shoot straight!
One thing I want to mention is that with Edel, I think it makes a lot of sense to try out different weighting of the putter to find one that fits, but, to beat on the dead horse once more, this aiming biz is shaky!
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