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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 27, 2010 11:35:07 GMT -5
Jimmy,
You wrote-: "Jeff, I could be wrong since it has been a couple of years since I watched Brian's video, but I believe that Dustin is performing the "twistaway" move. Brian allows for variations on when in the swing it is applied."
That's not my understanding. I believe that the twistaway maneuver is primarily performed during the takeaway. Brian talks about keeping the clubface facing the ball during the takeaway so that the toe of the club doesn't point skywards at the end-takeaway position. Dustin uses a takeaway swivel action and the toe of his club faces straight upwards at the end-takeaway position. In particular, note that the back of his left hand is slightly cupped at the end-takeaway position. It would be much more arched if he used a twistaway maneuver during the takeaway.
You wrote-: " Jeff, you have used an example of a golfer that is good enough to win a PGA Tour event as an example of a swing fault that you would fix. I would contend that your fix would have a high probability of sending him off of the Tour and he would never be heard from again. My belief is that you need to get rid of the thought process of "faults" in a swing and think of them as variations."
I disagree. I can think of no reason why Dustin's swing would be deleteriously affected if he "corrected" his arched left wrist problem and had an intact left arm flying wedge alignment at the end-backswing position. If you can think of a reason, then please present a countergument.
You wrote-: " Jeff, I understand that you try and get everybody to swing 'perfectly". If Homer Kelley thought that was correct, why did he catalogue so many different components and their variations? My thoughts are that if you really want to become a great teacher then you need to understand how "twistaway" and/or an arched wrist effects the other componenets and what variations you would need to have for a "twistaway" to work."
I don't have a single perfect swing style. In fact, I discuss multiple methods of swinging a golf club in my review papers. However, I do believe in biomechanical/mechanical coherency, and I believe that each swing style has to operate in concordance with certain swing fundamentals.
I agree that Homer catalogued many alternative options. However, he didn't mention the option of a twistaway manuever for a swinger, where the clubface is kept closed to the clubhead arc in the backswing. Why not?
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 27, 2010 11:56:48 GMT -5
VJ,
You wrote-: "As for the "twistaway" concept, It isn't uncomfortable for me, my wife and three of my good friends and most importantly it is effective in teaching all of us how to square the club up and learn a swivel action POST impact."
If the twistaway maneuver is comfortable - please feel free to use it.
How does a twistaway maneuver i) teach a golfer how to square the club up in the downswing and how does it ii) teach a golfer how to learn how to perform a swivel action post-impact?
You also wrote regarding the twistaway maneuver-: " I think you still believe that it only should be associated with the backswing/Takeaway, but I think you are missing the point and/or do not understand the material."
Hmm! I wonder who doesn't understand the concept of the twistaway maneuver.
You wrote-: "I never said anything about his release. please don't make up quotes. please read my posts."
Let me explain why I believe that you referred to Jamie's release. You wrote-"Is swinging a club at 140 mph and squaring it up at the last nano second "Biomechanically Natural"?"
I interpreted the statement "squaring up a club at the last nanosecond" as implying a late release (considering that he doesn't use PA#3). I apologize if I misinterpreted your statement.
You wrote-: " I don't see a "swing fault" in DJ's swing only "compensations". Every golfer has compensations in their swing, no one has a perfect swing and I think the golf swing is best described as a constant recovery of these compensations due to the human condition."
I guess that we use the term "fault" and "compensation" differently. I think that Dustin's arched left wrist at the end-backswing (which causes his clubshaft to droop downwards thereby disrupting his left arm flying wedge) is a swing "fault", and not a "compensation".
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 27, 2010 12:01:58 GMT -5
good stuff in this thread, learned a lot more from this twistaway discussion then I did using the search function at BM's site.
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Post by vjsinger on Feb 27, 2010 12:25:42 GMT -5
VJ, You wrote-: "As for the "twistaway" concept, It isn't uncomfortable for me, my wife and three of my good friends and most importantly it is effective in teaching all of us how to square the club up and learn a swivel action POST impact." If the twistaway maneuver is comfortable - please feel free to use it. How does a twistaway maneuver i) teach a golfer how to square the club up in the downswing and how does it ii) teach a golfer how to learn how to perform a swivel action post-impact? Again watch the video. From what I understand, Brian has seen lots of slicers open the clubface too early in the backswing and the twistaway serves as a deterrent to opening the face too much away from the ball. Holding the twistaway in the downswing helps a golfer that is a chronic slicer have a heightened awareness of the clubface I believe. This is not my work just my personal experience and thoughts on the work. If you watch the video he makes it VERY clear the reasons for having a slice.You also wrote regarding the twistaway maneuver-: " I think you still believe that it only should be associated with the backswing/Takeaway, but I think you are missing the point and/or do not understand the material." Hmm! I wonder who doesn't understand the concept of the twistaway maneuver. Re-watch the video. Another thing you have said is that the twistaway closes the face in the takeaway...NO it doesn't. It actually keeps the face square to the plane and again serves as a deterrent for opening the face too much in the backswing for the chronic slicer.You wrote-: "I never said anything about his release. please don't make up quotes. please read my posts." Let me explain why I believe that you referred to Jamie's release. You wrote-"Is swinging a club at 140 mph and squaring it up at the last nano second "Biomechanically Natural"?" I interpreted the statement "squaring up a club at the last nanosecond" as implying a late release (considering that he doesn't use PA#3). I apologize if I misinterpreted your statement. You wrote-: " I don't see a "swing fault" in DJ's swing only "compensations". Every golfer has compensations in their swing, no one has a perfect swing and I think the golf swing is best described as a constant recovery of these compensations due to the human condition." I guess that we us the term "fault" and "compensation" differently. I think that Dustin's arched left wrist at the end-backswing (which causes his clubshaft to droop downwards thereby disrupting his left arm flying wedge) is a swing "fault", and not a "compensation". Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 27, 2010 12:53:39 GMT -5
VJ
You wrote-: "Re-watch the video. Another thing you have said is that the twistaway closes the face in the takeaway...NO it doesn't. It actually keeps the face square to the plane and again serves as a deterrent for opening the face too much in the backswing for the chronic slicer."
Let me rephrase my "position" to better reflect my personal opinion. I believe that the clubface should naturally open in the early backswing (secondary to a takeaway swivel action) so that the clubface can be open to the clubhead arc by the mid-backswing (when the FLW and clubface should both be parallel to the inclined plane). The twistaway manuever prevents the natural clubface opening phenomenon and keeps the clubface more closed to the clubhead arc (more closed = more square). That's what I mean when I imply that the twistaway maneuver "closes the clubface".
You also wrote-: "From what I understand, Brian has seen lots of slicers open the clubface too early in the backswing and the twistaway serves as a deterrent to opening the face too much away from the ball."
I am sure that a twistaway maneuver acts as a deterrent to "opening the clubface too much in the takeaway". However, a right forearm takeaway solves that problem without any need for a compensatory move. I also think that when a golfer has corrected the "true" causes of his slice problem, then the golfer has the problem of a clubface that is too closed to the clubhead arc in the downswing - because he has ingrained the habit of performing a twistaway maneuver.
Jeff.
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Post by TeddyIrons on Feb 27, 2010 14:16:09 GMT -5
Teddy, You wrote-: "I've experimented with RFT and have found if I use it over time I tend to end up with a restricted pivot." I don't understand why you have that problem of a restricted pivot because the right forearm takeaway only involves the right upper limb, and the pivot action occurs independently. I cannot understand why movements of your right upper limb should adversely affect your pivot motion. Jeff. I think the RFT is good for finding a good backswing plane. However, in my case (and it could be because I'm not doing it properly), using RFT gets me thinking of my right arm, and the tendancy is for me to neglect my upper torso movement - it's possible to do the right hand clap with very little pivot. Again, this is due to one of my own personal tendancies, in that my pivot tends towards stopping too soon on the backswing. This is why a one-piece takeaway gets me moving better. In BM's Never Slice Again video, he makes it very clear that the various movements like twistaway, are to be reduced or stopped when you start hooking the ball.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 27, 2010 16:31:05 GMT -5
Teddy
You wrote-: "In BM's Never Slice Again video, he makes it very clear that the various movements like twistaway, are to be reduced or stopped when you start hooking the ball."
Of course! That's because it is not a targeted remedy that specifically deals with the "true" cause of the slice problem. The twistaway maneuver is simply a supplementary maneuver that imposes an overly closed clubface (relative to the clubhead arc) - when compared to the standard comparison of a traditional swing without a twistaway maneuver.
Jeff.
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Post by starretj on Feb 27, 2010 20:44:55 GMT -5
A little history on the "twistaway". It became named "twistaway" from one of Brian's students. This student swung like most hacking, slicing, terrible golfers, he had a severely open clubface and bent left wrist, throughout his swing. Brian was working with him and was physically changing his clubface to a more orthodox position. Once the student felt where Brian wanted the clubface, he, the student, said he needed to "twistaway". Brian used the term with others and it seemed to help a lot of other golfers understand what Brian wanted them to do.
If you have a bent left wrist then twistaway would get you to flat. You can go past flat and then obviously at some point you will need to work back to flat. You can play this game with a slightly closed clubface, it is almost impossible to play it consistently well with a severely open clubface. Remember that the name of the video is "Never Slice Again" and remember who the target audience is for this video.
I would not consider taking hacking golfers to a lot closer to orthodox as a band-aid. I have never met anyone whose swing wasn't evolving and changing throughout their career if they care at all and put any effort into their golf game.
It would be nice to have the same feelings and same perfect swing everyday, day after day. It hasn't happened yet and I would be willing to bet a fare amount that it won't happen in the future. I have had rounds where I just couldn't get it together and had no swing what so ever to get it around with. In a casual round it may not matter, but in the heat of a tournament you have to find something that you can post a score with. I have used twistaway in some of those rounds and gotten it to the house. It wasn't the prettiest, but it wasn't butt ugly either. Unless you chip and putt the lights out of it, it is almost impossible to get it to the house on those days with a severely, over rotated, open faced swing.
Jimmy S.
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Post by TeddyIrons on Feb 28, 2010 1:57:16 GMT -5
Agree with all of that Jimmy. It should be remembered that for a slicer, twistaway is often making him/her more orthodox when they first do this move, and not with a closed club face. It's the kind of move that gets you round the course on a bad day when it's going right.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 28, 2010 1:58:53 GMT -5
Jimmy, You wrote-: "If you have a bent left wrist then twistaway would get you to flat." I simply cannot understand your belief that twistaway was designed to deal with a golfer who bends the left wrist in the early backswing. A bent left wrist during the takeaway is a very uncommon fault and it would not open the clubface relative to the clubhead arc - it would close it. I believe that a twistaway maneuver is primarily designed to remedy a problem of over-rotation of the left hand during the takeaway. Some pertinent historical information about a twistaway maneuver - the idea of using a twistaway maneuver was described by Joe Dante in his book published in 1962 (nearly 50 years ago). He used the following diagram. The author stated that a beginner golfer should deliberately roll the left hand under the clubshaft during the takeaway. In the top photo, note how the left hand seems to roll under the clubshaft. The author recommends that the golfer should press down with the heel of the right hand onto the left thumb, and that this pressing motion will cause the left hand to roll under the clubshaft - especially if one gripped tightly with the 3rd, 4th and 5th fingers of the left hand. The second diagram (below the first diagram) depicts a golfer who doesn't use a twistaway maneuver. He also used the following diagram to show the appearance of the hands under the influence of twistaway. The author stated that when one looks at one's hands from above, that one should only be able to see one knuckle of the left hand and two knuckles of the right hand. Also, the clubface should be neutral (relative to the clubhead arc) and one should not be able to see the clubface. If a golfer doesn't use a twistaway maneuver, then the author believed that the left wrist would over-rotate during the takeaway. Note that when one looks at one's hands from above, that one can see 2-3 knuckles of the left hand and only one knuckle of the right hand, and that one can see a large part of the clubface because the clubface is too open. Jeff.
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Post by starretj on Feb 28, 2010 9:05:52 GMT -5
Jeff, my last reply in this thread unless the discussion moves on to something more compelling than your beliefs. Going back and forth isn't my style, I have just been trying to get people to have a better understanding so that they can make up their own minds. It doesn't really matter to me, I just don't think you have portrayed it correctly.
Jeff wrote,"A bent left wrist during the takeaway is a very uncommon fault and it would not open the clubface relative to the clubhead arc - it would close it."
Everybody that doesn't start their swing from a proper impact fix position starts their early backswing from a bent left wrist position. So, for you to state that it is very uncommon fault really takes away an credible arguement that you might have. Since slicing the ball is a major problem for most golfers, the proof is that this is a very common fault. You correctly state that the twistaway is to help with over rotation of the left arm. It really helps those who do both, since in general they are the worse slicers.
Another point, if the clubface was kept square to the swing path then at the top of the backswing it would face 180o away from the target. Since this isn't the case, even with twistaway the clubface opens to the path. It just doesn't seem to open as much as you think it should or as soon as you think it should. That is all well and good, except that there are many good examples of very good players that don't open it as far as you think they should. Again, I will emphasize, that in general, it is easier to play some good golf from a slightly less open position than it is to do the same with a more open than ideal position.
My observation is that this thread is a comparison between theoretical and practical. Some have offered that "twistaway" helped their swing and game, while Jeff argues against it without using any actual application experience, only theoretical perfect ideology. My suggestion would be for those who are struggling with a slice to try it. If it helps you then great, if it doesn't then try something else or better yet, get to a good teacher. If you decide to see a good teacher which I highly recommend.
(3JACK EDIT: Jimmy, good post but please watch out for condescending tones and snarky remarks)
Jimmy S.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Feb 28, 2010 10:01:37 GMT -5
Fellas.
Opinions are greatly welcomed here. I just insist that the opinions are backed up either by facts AND/OR 'somewhat reasonable logic.'
I will admit that I can see the case for using the term 'band-aid' as well as the case as thinking 'band-aid' is a derogatory term.
My thoughts now (and I can always be persuaded to change my mind) is that band-aid is fine because it's a prevalent term in the world of golf and golf instruction. And IMO, I don't like to ignore anything prevalent about the game. Furthermore, I don't think band aids are ALL bad. The name of the game is to shoot the lowest score and if a band-aid helps you do that, even if it's for 1 round of golf, that can be a good thing.
Brian has stated to the effect that people using NSA principles often get away from it once they get better control of the clubface and stop getting the clubface so wide open. So I think the question of whether or not NSA is a band-aid or not is valid....now we just have to provide information and opinions from both sides of the argument and back it up with facts and/or 'somewhat reasonable logic.'
Let's remember that Brian IS a registered member and poster here. While he's not posted as much as other professionals, let's also remember that I have used a ton of his information, thoughts, pictures, video, etc. on my blog. Don't worry...Brian has never even mentioned that to me. But, it's something that I have always recognized and other teachers are not so generous, even if I provide a ton of links to their Web site.
So, we must:
- stay away from insults. - stay away from condescending tones.
I do tend to agree with starettj on this issue as I believe NSA can get an open clubface golfer into a square clubface golfer. But I also see the complexity of the issue as it's a pattern that after awhile as a golfer improves and they stop opening the clubface, they might start hooking the ball and find a need to get rid of the twistaway.
3JACK
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Post by kevcarter on Feb 28, 2010 10:05:37 GMT -5
My apologies. I shouldn't be involved here now that Mr. Manzellas work has become so prevalent. I have trouble setting aside my personal feelings on his persona. Please take my name off the list of forum members.
Thank You, Kevin
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Post by Richie3Jack on Feb 28, 2010 10:17:51 GMT -5
Kevin - I understand that you and Brian do not see eye-to-eye on many things that are very important to you. But I find that Brian's teaching and name to be only a fraction of what we discuss here.
I've got a folder alone just for TGM translations and looking at this forum, there's plenty of threads on S&T, darome, etc.
I sent you a PM about the subject and I'm not even the slightest bit upset about the situation. I understand your initial response but had to delete it. I think you contribute a lot to this forum AND I have ZERO issue with somebody disagreeing with Brian's teaching...in fact, I greatly encourage debate. But I felt you were clearly provoked and had to grab a handle of the situation. I will speak to those involved as well.
I take the blame here because I stopped reading this thread and needed to pay closer attention to the folder. However, I would greatly appreciate it if you could do me the favor of reconsidering.
3JACK
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 28, 2010 10:56:03 GMT -5
Jimmy,
You wrote-: " I have just been trying to get people to have a better understanding so that they can make up their own minds. It doesn't really matter to me, I just don't think you have portrayed it correctly."
I respect your right to harbor a different opinion than me, and you have every right to express your contrary opinion. However, I also have the same right to express my opinions, and I think that you are wrong about this issue. All forum members obtain maximum benefit when contrary opinions are expressed by different forum members - because it allows then to perceive an issue from a variety of perspectives. So, please continue to present a counterargument.
You wrote-: "Everybody that doesn't start their swing from a proper impact fix position starts their early backswing from a bent left wrist position. So, for you to state that it is very uncommon fault really takes away an credible arguement that you might have."
I wasn't referring to the adjusted address position. I was talking about the takeaway - when the hands/club starts to move. Most golfers, even beginner golfers, start to flatten their left wrist as they start the takeaway. This happens almost immediately at the start of the takeaway as the right wrist starts to bend, which helps to palmar flex the left wrist, moving it from a dorsiflexed alignment to a flatter (more neutral) alignment.
The only golfers who maintain a bent left wrist during the early backswing are those golfers who deliberately lag the clubhead by moving only the butt end of the club while allowing the clubhead to move later. That takeaway maneuver of lagging the clubhead closes the clubface (relative to the clubhead arc), and it is not a cause of a slicing problem.
You wrote-: "Another point, if the clubface was kept square to the swing path then at the top of the backswing it would face 180o away from the target. Since this isn't the case, even with twistaway the clubface opens to the path. It just doesn't seem to open as much as you think it should or as soon as you think it should. That is all well and good, except that there are many good examples of very good players that don't open it as far as you think they should."
I realize that the clubface still opens to the clubhead arc when using a twistaway maneuver. So, the question becomes - what is the optimum amount of clubface opening (relative to the clubhead arc) at the end-backswing position?
I think that the answer to that question was provided by Homer Kelley in his TGM book. The answer doesn't primarily relate to the "degree of clubface opening" but to the left arm flying wedge alignment. At the end-backswing position, the left arm flying wedge's internal alignment must be "correct" - i) the left arm and clubshaft must be in a straight-line planar relationship, which requires a ii) FLW (geometrically flat). If the left arm flying wedge's alignment is "correct" then iii) the clubface should be parallel to the back of the left forearm. The twistaway maneuver disrupts that left arm flying wedge alignment.
It is true that a golfer can play excellent golfer with an imperfect left arm flying wedge alignment at the end-backswing position. However, I think that Homer Kelley was correct to infer that there is a great advantage to getting the geometry/mechanics optimized. This advice has practical utility, and it's not only a theoretical construct. Homer Kelley thought deeply about all types of swing alternatives, and he listed them in his book, but he didn't write about a twistaway maneuver (for swingers).
Jeff.
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