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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 26, 2010 11:38:31 GMT -5
In his "Never Slice Again" swing video, Brian Manzella recommends a twistaway action.
Do any forum members use a twistaway action?
I personally think that a "twistaway" action is a biomechanically unnatural action that should never be used in a swinger's action. I think that a swinger should use a takeaway swivel action, that gets the back of the FLW (anatomically flat or geometrically flat) to lie against the inclined plane - to be parallel to the inclined plane - in the mid-backswing. To accomplish this swivel action, there has to be a certain amount of left upper arm internal rotation in the left shoulder socket, plus a certain amount of left forearm pronation. I think that it is biomechanically unnatural to try and force the left hand to resist the natural left forearm pronatory action that accompanies the takeaway swivel action - by using a twistaway action - simply in order to keep the clubface "artificially" closed to the clubhead arc.
What do you think?
Jeff.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Feb 26, 2010 12:04:42 GMT -5
Twistaway in NSA 2.0 closes the clubface...particularly on the takeaway and the backswing.
3JACK
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Post by vjsinger on Feb 26, 2010 12:13:47 GMT -5
In his "Never Slice Again" swing video, Brian Manzella recommends a twistaway action. Do any forum members use a twistaway action? I personally think that a "twistaway" action is a biomechanically unnatural action that should never be used in a swinger's action. I think that a swinger should use a takeaway swivel action, that gets the back of the FLW (anatomically flat or geometrically flat) to lie against the inclined plane - to be parallel to the inclined plane - in the mid-backswing. To accomplish this swivel action, there has to be a certain amount of left upper arm internal rotation in the left shoulder socket, plus a certain amount of left forearm pronation. I think that it is biomechanically unnatural to try and force the left hand to resist the natural left forearm pronatory action that accompanies the takeaway swivel action - by using a twistaway action - simply in order to keep the clubface "artificially" closed to the clubhead arc. What do you think? Jeff. I have used the twistaway action and think it helped me understand how to properly "square the club up" at and through impact. If you're a slicer and have been holding the club off for years and years and have never learned the swivel, I think getting the feel of this on the takeaway, backswing AND, the real key to the concept is "maintaining the twist" in the downswing. If a golfer has never felt this before I believe that it is usually a revelation to them and can help develop a feel for the post impact swivel. Slicer's that have cronic slice syndrome need this kind of feel and concentrated effort on this aspect of the swing, especially if you ae a slicer that has never seen a ball go left and hook in your life. You speak about "natural biomechanical actions" quite often. As someone, who is struggling with the game right now and not meeting his goals, I have found that there is no such thing as "natural" in golf. It is my contention that, by you stating that a certain concept is "natural", it diminishes, to a certain extent, the difficulty of the golf stroke. Can you please explain to me what you mean by "natural" biomechanical actions? I also wonder if you have purchased Never Slice Again and studied it thoroughly, If you have tested it on the lesson tee with your students and yourself? Have you spoken to Brian about your questions and "issues" you have with his concepts? Are you also saying that no TOUR players use this concept/move in their games?
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 26, 2010 12:53:46 GMT -5
I have never seen this action so its hard to comment. Is it demonstrated anywhere.
Is this a viable swing fundamental or a bit of a "band aid"?
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Post by Richie3Jack on Feb 26, 2010 13:23:33 GMT -5
IMO, it's more of a band-aid and not really a swing fundamental. Like the title of the video says it's 'NEVER slice AGAIN.' Close your clubface enough and it will be very difficult to slice again. Lots of slicers slice the ball because their clubface is so open in the backswing that it gets open on the downswing. This allows the golfer to start feeling what a clubface that is not so wide open feels like.
3JACK
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 26, 2010 13:30:55 GMT -5
3jack Twistaway does close the clubface relative to the clubhead arc in the takeaway, but I believe that's an artificial and unnecessary maneuver. Most professional golfers allow the FLW, and therefore clubface, to move in concert with the rotating left arm in the backswing, so that the back of the left hand and clubface are parallel to the inclined plane in the mid-backswing. If the clubface is closed to the clubhead arc in the mid-backswing (as result of a twistaway maneuver), then one has introduced a biomechanically artificial and biomechanically unnecessary action to one's swing action. VJ I have purchased the "Never Slice Again" video and I have studied it in depth. I think that a twistaway action is biomechanically unnnatural and also unnecessary (even if a golfer has a slice problem). I believe that if a golfer uses a right forearm takeaway action (using the right arm in a natural "right clap hand" action), and simultaneously allows the left upper arm to automatically/naturally rotate clockwise and simultaneously allows the left forearm to automatically/naturally pronate, so that the left arm flying wedge remains intact during the mid-backswing and late backswing, then the clubface will naturally be 90 degrees open to the clubhead arc at the end-backswing position. Stuart Appleby is using a right forearm takeaway. During that action he allows his left upper arm to naturally rotate clockwise in the left shoulder socket joint and the left forearm to naturally pronate - and that represents the takeaway swivel action. That natural left arm/forearm action allows him to get the back of his FLW and clubface parallel to the inclined plane in the mid-backswing (image 4) and roughly 90 degrees open to the clubhead arc by the end-backswing (image 5). During the downswing, one simply reverses this natural biomechanical process - the left upper arm rotates counterclockwise and the left forearm supinates - so that one reaches impact with a neutral left arm alignment (left upper arm is neutral and neither internally rotated or externally rotated, and the left forearm is neutral and neither pronated or supinated). If a golfer has slicing problem, then he should identify and remedy the cause(s). I don't have any sympathy for a band-aid maneuver (twistaway action) that I think is biomechanically unnatural/uncomfortable. I have not addressed this issue in Brian's forum because I am unwilling to participate in his forum (primarily because my posts have been arbitrarily, and repeatedly, removed). Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 26, 2010 13:45:12 GMT -5
Greg,
I do not have a link to a thread/swing video that demonstrates the twistaway action.
It is a biomechanical maneuver, where one resists the natural left forearm pronation that occurs automatically/naturally during a takeaway swivel action, by actively supinating the left forearm so that one twists (forces) the left hand's knuckles underneath the left palm during the takeaway. The "twistaway feeling is a "feeling" of keeping the clubface facing the ball throughout the takeaway and not allowing the toe of the club to point straight upwards by the end-of-the-takeaway. When using a twistaway maneuver, the clubface is slightly closed to the clubhead arc at the end of the takeaway.
A TGM hitter uses this type of backswing action because he does not use a takeaway swivel action. The clubface of a TGM hitter is less open to the clubhead arc throughout the early/mid backswing (compared to a TGM swinger).
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 26, 2010 13:51:35 GMT -5
I am slightly closed to the arc with my changes though I feel that happens because I am trying to take the club up on a steeper backswing plane. It seemed like the flatter one would try to take the club or the more laid off the club gets the easier to would be rotate the face open to the path?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 26, 2010 14:10:48 GMT -5
Greg,
I agree with you - there is obviously more rotation of the left arm/forearm per unit time if a golfer swings back on a shallower plane (like John Erickson) rather than on an upright plane (like Jim Furyk) in the backswing. Either way, I don't think that one should add a twistaway maneuver to that naturally-occurring left arm/forearm rotation - which only varies in degree depending on the steepness of the clubshaft's path in the backswing.
Jeff.
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Post by TeddyIrons on Feb 26, 2010 15:02:47 GMT -5
I think twistaway is a band-aid, but a useful one for when you're out there on the course and the ball is going right. The problem with a lot of golfers is that they over-pronate the left arm early in the takeaway. By the top of the swing they may look like any other golfer, but I feel that the early pronation can lead to losing the feel of where the club-head sweet spot is which can affect impact. I think it also makes the club feel lighter if it is more open on the early takeaway, and we should want to feel as if the club is heavy. I have suffered from over pronation a lot and it's one of those habits that just keeps coming back the moment I stop working on it. I find that applying some twistaway on the backswing (only), gives me a normal looking backswing - if I over do it, then of course I get into club-face problems and can hook or pull it way left. So for me, twistaway is just a feeling for slicers to accomplish a normal looking take-away - they are so used to opening that club face that it feels like they are supinating the forearm when they do twistaway - but in reality they continue to pronate, just that they do it a little higher in the backswing.
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Post by vjsinger on Feb 26, 2010 17:13:15 GMT -5
IMO, it's more of a band-aid and not really a swing fundamental. Like the title of the video says it's 'NEVER slice AGAIN.' Close your clubface enough and it will be very difficult to slice again. Lots of slicers slice the ball because their clubface is so open in the backswing that it gets open on the downswing. This allows the golfer to start feeling what a clubface that is not so wide open feels like. 3JACK Define Band-Aid and What are the swing fundamentals?
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Post by vjsinger on Feb 26, 2010 17:24:14 GMT -5
3jack Twistaway does close the clubface relative to the clubhead arc in the takeaway, but I believe that's an artificial and unnecessary maneuver. Most professional golfers allow the FLW, and therefore clubface, to move in concert with the rotating left arm in the backswing, so that the back of the left hand and clubface are parallel to the inclined plane in the mid-backswing. If the clubface is closed to the clubhead arc in the mid-backswing (as result of a twistaway maneuver), then one has introduced a biomechanically artificial and biomechanically unnecessary action to one's swing action. VJ I have purchased the "Never Slice Again" video and I have studied it in depth. I think that a twistaway action is biomechanically unnnatural and also unnecessary (even if a golfer has a slice problem). I believe that if a golfer uses a right forearm takeaway action (using the right arm in a natural "right clap hand" action), and simultaneously allows the left upper arm to automatically/naturally rotate clockwise and simultaneously allows the left forearm to automatically/naturally pronate, so that the left arm flying wedge remains intact during the mid-backswing and late backswing, then the clubface will naturally be 90 degrees open to the clubhead arc at the end-backswing position. Stuart Appleby is using a right forearm takeaway. During that action he allows his left upper arm to naturally rotate clockwise in the left shoulder socket joint and the left forearm to naturally pronate - and that represents the takeaway swivel action. That natural left arm/forearm action allows him to get the back of his FLW and clubface parallel to the inclined plane in the mid-backswing (image 4) and roughly 90 degrees open to the clubhead arc by the end-backswing (image 5). During the downswing, one simply reverses this natural biomechanical process - the left upper arm rotates counterclockwise and the left forearm supinates - so that one reaches impact with a neutral left arm alignment (left upper arm is neutral and neither internally rotated or externally rotated, and the left forearm is neutral and neither pronated or supinated). If a golfer has slicing problem, then he should identify and remedy the cause(s). I don't have any sympathy for a band-aid maneuver (twistaway action) that I think is biomechanically unnatural/uncomfortable. I have not addressed this issue in Brian's forum because I am unwilling to participate in his forum (primarily because my posts have been arbitrarily, and repeatedly, removed). Jeff. So you haven't tested it on students? Do you have students? Define Right Forearm takeaway. How is this action accomplished and why is this the most efficient way to swing a golf club away from the ball? Why do you use Stuart Appleby as your model? He's average in Driving distance over his career, He's below avaerage in GIR, below average in driving accuracy, below average in scoring, and his best year in the Fed Ex cup standings was in 2008 when he finished 17th. He seems pretty average to me by Tour standards so
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 26, 2010 17:40:23 GMT -5
Here is a pretty good review of the RFT and the reasoning behind Imperfectgolfer's thoughts why its best to be used. perfectgolfswingreview.net/arm.htmI really like Appleby's movements in the golf swing and realize he has tappered off the past couple years as a player. I don't think stats are the be all end all or we would all be copying Joe Durants swing movements. I don't know if having students really relates to anything.
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Post by kevcarter on Feb 26, 2010 18:13:58 GMT -5
I really enjoy Applebee's swing for the same reasons as the others. I use it as one of my models for hitting. I feel he does a wonderful job of getting the club on his desired plane right away using the right forearm. As Greg posted, Jeff does a wonderful job defining this in the paper that he linked, and ties the Magic Of The Right Forearm to Applebee's motion.
Kevin
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Post by vjsinger on Feb 26, 2010 18:35:41 GMT -5
I don't think that stats are the be all end all either, but I do bring them up just to stay neutral here. I think having students relates because you need a "lab" to test theories on. You need multiple guinea pigs or "subjects" to test your theories of the swing on. I think having multiple years of doing this research is needed again, with "test subjects", i.e. Real people and real golfers other than yourself. Jeff has "called out" Brian's teachings alot lately, using this forum to do so, and I just want to know why he has these opinions and what his "qualifications" are to do so. Of course, I believe everyone should have an opinion and hell this isn't my site, but I wonder why I should stick around and read this stuff. I need HARD DATA.
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