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Post by vjsinger on Feb 28, 2010 11:05:48 GMT -5
I find it odd and REALLY silly that somehow, Brian has been made the bad guy here and he didn't make a single post in this thread. A forum member seemingly quit and people got really upset and the guy that has the original body of work wasn't even involved to defend his position. I wonder if the people that have such a problem with Brian have personally met him, I doubt it. I believe if you have you wouldn't have the same opinion. Anyhoo, I enjoyed the thread and didn't get worked up in the least bit. I didn't learn anything really, but it was amusing.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 28, 2010 11:19:50 GMT -5
3jack
You wrote-: "I do tend to agree with starettj on this issue as I believe NSA can get an open clubface golfer into a square clubface golfer."
I agree that a twistaway manuever can turn an open faced player into a square clubface player. However, that's a band-aid maneuver - the same as simply turning the club in a slicer's left hand 90 degrees counterclockwise at address, so that it is grossly closed to the clubhead arc. There is no way that a slicer will hit a banana slice with that exaggerated degree of clubface closure, but it's a band-aid treatment that actually makes the slicer avoid dealing with the "true" causes of his slice problem. If I paid a golf instructor >$100/hour, I would expect him to offer me specific remedies that are causally-targeted at my swing faults, and not band-aid maneuvers meant to temporarily "fix" my swing fault, and thereby disguise the "true" extent of my swing fault.
Brian always brags that he can "fix" any golfer's swing in one lesson, and he always wants to be on a TV show where he can compete head-to-head with competing golf instructors. However, I don't think that a temporary "fix" (eg. converting a slice pattern into a straight/draw pattern within the time period of an one-hour lesson) due to a band-aid maneuver should be the goal of that type of competition between different golf instructors. Golf instructors should compete on their i) ability to accurately diagnose a cause of a slice problem and also by their ii) ability to permanently remedy the slice problem with specific targeted cures - that are biomechanically/mechanically sound.
Jeff.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Feb 28, 2010 11:41:02 GMT -5
One thing I would also like to state is that coming into this forum I fully expected to have some 'turbulence' with the general rules. I'm not the least bit upset about what happened, it's just something that needed to be taken care of. I completely understand Kevin's position as he was provoked.
Provoking people happens sometimes. Nobody's perfect. Acting in response to being provoked happens as well.
The key is to catch it early and then go over with all parties involved on how we can prevent it happening again. Like I said earlier, I'm certainly at fault for not paying close attention to this thread. And I would personally appreciate it if you feel that somebody is violating the rules, PM me and I will investigate.
3JACK
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antti
Beat up Radials
Posts: 9
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Post by antti on Feb 28, 2010 11:54:41 GMT -5
Slicer turning into a hooker is a positive.
Hookers have a better chance than slicers of developing into good ball strikers. Why? Generally, because they may learn to rotate their bodies to limit the hook while slicers just keep throwing the club away. That was obviously simple, but I think there is truth in that.
The old saying goes something like ''road to good golf is full of hooks but has no slices''. Don't know who said it but I think its a simple truth.
If a twistaway fixes a slice then I think it is good. Even if it makes one hook a while.
How often does a slicer evolve directly into a straight ball hitter?
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 28, 2010 12:44:11 GMT -5
I think the twistaway move is a band aid but as Richie said its not a bad thing. If it can get someone playing better in a short amount of time than I am all for it.
This is exactly why I asked Brian about what he does when given a lesson based on it being a short term or long term fix. If a student with a major slicing problem comes to him and says "you have one lesson to fix this slice" and Brian recommends the twistaway manuver than I think that is solid teaching, he was able to do what the student wanted.
Now of that same student says we are going to work together over a period of time to fix this slice I would expect him to go more along the lines that Jeff would and address the broken fundamentals.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 28, 2010 12:59:05 GMT -5
Greg,
I agree with your position.
If a slicer wants a "quick fix" in one lesson to ameliorate his slice problem, then a twistaway maneuver can definitely work.
My comments in this thread are primarily addressed to serious golfers who want to "create" a solid swing based on sound golf mechanics/biomechanics, and who are willing to seek biomechanically-rational "solutions" that are specifically targeted at their correctly-identified swing faults.
Jeff.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Feb 28, 2010 13:01:27 GMT -5
Slicer turning into a hooker is a positive. Hookers have a better chance than slicers of developing into good ball strikers. Why? Generally, because they may learn to rotate their bodies to limit the hook while slicers just keep throwing the club away. That was obviously simple, but I think there is truth in that. I agree with this quite a bit and think this is a large part why Hogan became the ballstriker he was. According to Tom Wishon who spoke to Hogan's personal clubmaker Gene Sheeley...Hogan had X-stiff shafts that were tipped 2" *before* he discovered the secret. I think that this was done so Hogan could get rid of the hook just by creating equipment that couldn't hook. That didn't work, but in the meantime in order to hit that equipment he developed a very powerful pivot along with powerful wrists and hands. Sheeley said that after Hogan discovered 'the secret' he tried some more normal flex shafts but just didn't like the feel of them since he was so used to his X-Stiff shafts that were tipped 2". On the scale of Rifle's flex system, I'm guessing that would be in the 8.0 range. On TT DG's flex scale, probably something in the X500 range...which True Temper doesn't even make. I do think the problem that can arise with getting the clubface closed. When I'm on the range, most people are only working on their backswing and they are almost always working on their swing plane or their takeaway. They completely ignore what the clubface is doing, which is usually closed pretty badly and then they can't figure out why their shots are all over the place and continue to work on the plane while not even acknowledging the clubface. I tend to agree with Sevam1's sentiments that beginning golfers almost inevitably start off with a slice and then as they develop they usually fight off a hook, then the next stage is to get rid of the hook and start hitting it consistently with less bend. 3JACK
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Post by mudball on Feb 28, 2010 13:39:33 GMT -5
In his "Never Slice Again" swing video, Brian Manzella recommends a twistaway action. Do any forum members use a twistaway action? I personally think that a "twistaway" action is a biomechanically unnatural action that should never be used in a swinger's action. I think that a swinger should use a takeaway swivel action, that gets the back of the FLW (anatomically flat or geometrically flat) to lie against the inclined plane - to be parallel to the inclined plane - in the mid-backswing. To accomplish this swivel action, there has to be a certain amount of left upper arm internal rotation in the left shoulder socket, plus a certain amount of left forearm pronation. I think that it is biomechanically unnatural to try and force the left hand to resist the natural left forearm pronatory action that accompanies the takeaway swivel action - by using a twistaway action - simply in order to keep the clubface "artificially" closed to the clubhead arc. What do you think? Jeff. My concern about doing something to the clubface on the way back like keeping it square or keeping it closed would result in the opposite on the way down. So if anything I think you should open it on the way back to encourage closing on the way down. There are people who use a shut to open action (Monty for example) but I don't think it would be one I'd start someone out on. I am not a believer in keeping the clubface looking at the ball on the backswing - I think that can lead to opening on the way down to stop the ball going left. Even if it's subconscious and the golfer is not aware.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Feb 28, 2010 16:38:05 GMT -5
One of the things people don't recognize with a shut clubface at the top is that it often creates missing shots both ways.
When I first came to see Ted Fort (www.mariettagolfcenter.com), the first thing we worked on was my very shut clubface in the backswing.
Ted deduced that with my clubace so shut at P4 that in order to square up the clubface I would almost vertical hinge to get the clubface back to square at P7. That takes a lot of timing because if the clubface doesn't open up enough, shots will be missed left. If I overdo it shots will be missed right and high. And then if I do square up the face, that hinge style is not optimal for a full swing.
One of the first things we talked about was my game and I told Ted that I was really good at flop shots and he said it was logical given my full swing hinge motion.
I actually see similar problems with a lot of 5-15 handicappers on the range. They are so busy working on plane, they don't see their very shut clubface. Then they see their ball flight going left and right and keep thinking it's a path issue (the old ball flight laws don't help with this).
As far as the twistaway, I haven't used it in awhile. I would use the downswing twistaway if I needed a big draw or if I had a shot where the left side was open, but I could not under any circumstance miss right.
3JACK
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 28, 2010 18:54:01 GMT -5
3jack
You wrote-: "Ted deduced that with my clubace so shut at P4 that in order to square up the clubface I would almost vertical hinge to get the clubface back to square at P7."
The great advantage to keeping the left arm flying wedge alignment intact/correct throughout the swing is that one doesn't have to worry about how the clubface is aligned relative to the clubhead arc. The clubface is always parallel to the back of the FLW and one only has to think of performing a release swivel action in the mid-late downswing so that the back of FLW faces the target at impact. One's mind is only focused on one's left hand - specifically the back of the FLW - when one thinks of clubface control. Adopting a twistaway maneuver changes the relationship between the clubface's orientation and the back of the FLW, and complicates matters.
Jeff.
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Post by dodger on Mar 3, 2010 10:02:14 GMT -5
Twistaway works, it may be unnatural and Jeff Mann does not like it, but it works. I have seen it help players that could not stop slicing quicker than anything else. When I use it on the downswing, it keeps the clubface from opening too much and dropping underplane, an issue I fight. At about halfway down, many players discuss the turning of the left knuckles toward the ground, which firms up the left wrist. I can use my hips on the downswing as hard as I want with twistaway, if I rely solely on the lower body pivot, the harder the hips drive, the more the club opens and I lay it off. Twistaway helps with that. I wish I didn't need to use it, but I do sometimes. Call it a bandaid if you want, but on 17 when there is water or ob right and twenty bucks is on the line, I will use whatever I can. Plus, look at Dustin Johnson's swing, looks like twistaway to me, too bad it is unnatural or biomechanically unsound, but it works.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 3, 2010 10:17:59 GMT -5
Dodger - It doesn't bother me that many golfers like to use the twistaway to fight a slice problem. My personal interest is in sound golf swing mechanics/biomechanics, and I do not think that most golfers understand the subject. Homer Kelley did the golf world a great service by providing us with many insights into golf swing mechanics.
For example, you wrote-: "When I use it on the downswing, it keeps the clubface from opening too much and dropping underplane, an issue I fight. At about halfway down, many players discuss the turning of the left knuckles toward the ground, which firms up the left wrist."
It is my belief that if a golfer has an intact left arm flying wedge at the end-backswing position, then he simply has to keep the left arm flying wedge intact in the downswing. There is no possibility of the clubface opening too much if the back of the FLW is parallel to the inclined plane in the mid-downswing and no possibility of being underplane. If the left arm flying wedge is intact, then by definition the left wrist is firm, and it remains firm during the release swivel action because the left arm flying wedge rotates as an intact unit. If a golfer understands how to keep his left arm flying wedge intact in the downswing, then he will not need to use an additional maneuver to solve all those avoidable problems.
Jeff.
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Post by dodger on Mar 3, 2010 13:29:24 GMT -5
Wish I could keep that flying wedge intact Jeff. My problem stems from a very strong lower body and core and weak arms due to a cervical problem and small hands. The more my lower body moves aggressively on the downswing, I have trouble with maintaining the flying wedge. Twistaway helps. Your followup comments explain your thesis, which I agree with. However I think I am a serious golfer and if a "band-aid" helps why not use it. Plus was not Hogans cupping of the left wrist at the top to stop the hook a "band-aid?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 3, 2010 16:14:38 GMT -5
I personally believe that Hogan had an intact left arm flying wedge alignment at the end-backswing - even with his cupped left wrist, which means that his cupping is associated with a geometrically flat left wrist, and not a bent left wrist. In his earlier career (1930s) he had cupping that is associated with a bent left wrist at the end-backswing position, which caused his clubshaft to cross the line. He solved that problem in his later career.
Jeff.
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Post by dodger on Mar 4, 2010 13:57:25 GMT -5
How can a cupped wrist be flat? From Hogan's own words to those who practiced with him, ie Dickinson, Burke, Bolt, Venturi he cupped his left wrist at the top, so he could apply as much force as he could without fear of a hook. Band-aid. I think we all use them or should if we need to. How about a thread, greatest band-aids? What has kept you in the game or produced great shots that you don't necessarily like in your swing?
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