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Post by Richie3Jack on Mar 18, 2010 10:27:53 GMT -5
Let's keep all of the OPS debate posts here. The posts have been excellent, but I don't think it's in the best interest of the forum to have OPS debate posts in a S&T thread.
3JACK
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 18, 2010 11:42:02 GMT -5
Dan, I am posting here - at 3jack's request. You last wrote-: "Jeff every swing would hit any baseline at some if you made the line short/long enough. I think I know how to determine the plane angle, and I think I have a pretty good understanding of TGM considering I am an AI. Anthony Kim is on plane, never said he wasn't, but his plane is shifted out to the right (Closed-Square in TGM) which I tried to explain before. Smock in the video uses Closed-Square, Square-Square, and Open-Square. Compare how much the angle in the lines changes for Martin Hall versus AK. The red circle lines are as close as you can get on a 2D image as it is simply the shaft highlighted at various points in the swing." What red circle lines are you referring to? I think that Anthony Kim's stance is square to his baseline (which is on the ball-target line), and I do not think that his baseline is directed to the right of the ball-target line. I still think that your drawn lines are wrong. Here, for example, is your Jeff Ritter image. I think that your red lines are wrong. I think that the blue-dotted line represents his likely baseline. I think that the yellow arrow lines better represent the direction that the butt end of his clubshaft is pointing at, and I think that Jeff Ritter has an on-plane downswing. I have shortened the yellow arrow line in image 1 because it must actually be directed out-of-the image towards the viewer, and one has to mentally project in which direction it is pointing (from a 3-D perspective). The same principle applies to image 3 because it really requires a mental projection to know where his clubshaft is directed - because the clubshaft is not parallel to the plane of the front of the camera lens. We only agree on image 2 - because his clubshaft is roughly parallel to the front of the camera lens (and perpendicular to the baseline). Jeff.
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Post by siteseer2 on Mar 18, 2010 18:17:46 GMT -5
JMan you are not a very good line drawer... In addition, the SWEETspot is the focal point in plane angle NOT the shaft...they are NOT one and the same...
Yes, your points about parallax are valid...but it can be accounted for...
I'll also say you are off base on 1PS, for as much as you hung out over at JH's place...Don't mean that as a snipe, just fact...I've enjoyed your distilling many "Theories" into a digestable morsel, for the hi-capper, and your website is well done in this regard...but as to the finer points, your off base...just my IMHO... you should listen more than argue... Does that mean we need to get cross-ways, no...and I don't plan on picking up the Flag from Jeffy, and carrying on...
(3JACK EDIT: siteseer, watch the condescending tones.)
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 18, 2010 19:55:39 GMT -5
Siteseer2
You wrote-: "JMan you are not a very good line drawer..."
Your opinion is of no value - in the absence of an explanation.
You wrote-: "In addition, the SWEETspot is the focal point in plane angle NOT the shaft...they are NOT one and the same..."
They are the same when the club is above waist level and the butt end of the club points at the baseline. When the clubhead end of the clubshaft points at the baseline, then the error is actually very small - a few degrees.
You also wrote with reference to my representation of the Hardy OPS swing style - : "as to the finer points, your off base."
That fact could well be true - but your personal opinion may, or may not, be legitimate. You would have to express your opinion in prose language for forum members to independently decide on the legitimacy of your personal opinions regarding my knowledge of the finer points of Hardy's OPS swing style.
Jeff.
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Post by iteachgolf on Mar 18, 2010 20:04:20 GMT -5
Jeff you are free to believe what you want but AK's baseline is not parallel to his stance and he is definitely CF. I believe in the photo below it will be obvious where his baseline is and that is right of his stance. Charlie's baseline is same as stance line and the bottom is a swing with baseline left of stance line. If you can't see it, I don't know what to tell you. I do find it somewhat amusing you argue TGM principles with an AI of TGM rather than trying to learn anything. Attachments:
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 18, 2010 20:24:06 GMT -5
Dan,
You wrote-: "Jeff you are free to believe what you want but AK's baseline is not parallel to his stance and he is definitely CF."
Two points.
1) What is your proof that AKs' baseline is directed to the right of the ball-target line? Where is the ball-target line in that image of AK? Where is the baseline? How do you know you are right?
2) What do you mean by the term CF? I have asked this question repeatedly and I have not received a definitive reply. In particular, I would like to know whether a golfer who employs a CF release is tracing a SPL, which means that he is keeping the shaft "on plane".
Regarding your statement-: " I do find it somewhat amusing you argue TGM principles with an AI of TGM rather than trying to learn anything."
You are wrong about two points.
1) I am always trying to learn.
2) I primarily learn by questioning/probing the legitimacy of a forum member's (or golf instructor's) opinions - whether that person is, or is not, an AI. I have read many TGM-opinions expressed by different AIs, and they often contradict each other, so I do not blindly accept any statement relating to TGM principles because that individual AI states that he is a "TGM-expert". I believe that any "TGM-expert" must defend his golf instructional opinions in the same way that I am obliged to defend all my golf instructional opinions.
Jeff.
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Post by iteachgolf on Mar 18, 2010 20:36:48 GMT -5
Dan, You wrote-: "Jeff you are free to believe what you want but AK's baseline is not parallel to his stance and he is definitely CF." Two points. 1) What is your proof that AKs' baseline is directed to the right of the ball-target line? Where is the ball-target line in that image of AK? Where is the baseline? How do you know you are right? 2) What do you mean by the term CF? I have asked this question repeatedly and I have not received a definitive reply. In particular, I would like to know whether a golfer who employs a CF release is tracing a SPL, which means that he is keeping the shaft "on plane". Jeff. Well lets see when shaft is parallel to the ground on both sides of the ball it points right of his stance line. What more proof do I need. He is either off plane or his plane angle is right of his stance line. Your choice. Look at not only the shaft but how out his right arm is in the followthrough pic compared to the other 2. As I told you before CF and CP both trace a straight plane line it is simply right or left of the stance/targetline.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Mar 18, 2010 20:39:46 GMT -5
I think the questions are:
1. What is AK's typical 'stock shot?'
2. What is AK's typical miss.
I've never bothered to watch AK live. I remember in that clinic he did with Tiger that was on The Golf Channel, he basically stated that he can't hit a draw on command. However, if his misses are hooks, then that can be an indication that his plane line is out to the right. He was missing dead right at the Ryder Cup, another possible indication of a plane line rotated to the right.
As far as your disagreements with each other, I think we have to remember that just because one cannot convince the other with their argument, doesn't mean that you are wrong and it doesn't mean you are right.
I think Dan has made a good argument IMO and I think Jeff has made good arguments as well. Unless AK got on a Trackman and it showed his plane out to the right, we don't know for a FACT as to what is going on. Thus, we just analyze the matter at hand and theorize and try to back it up with logic and reason.
And if we continue to disagree, then you can continue to state your case or rest on the case you stated.
There's plenty of times I've disagreed with posters here. Jeff is a good example because I've disagreed with him quite a bit. BUT, often times I just stop posting in the thread because I feel like I've stated my case and IMO, just because I've stopped posting and Jeff continues to post doesn't mean that I think I am wrong and Jeff is right and 'won' the argument.
As always, if you have any questions or problems...please PM me.
3JACK
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 18, 2010 20:52:14 GMT -5
Dan, You have not provided proof - only an opinion. I believe that the major difference between AK's and Charlie's swing (between a CF release swing and a CP release swing) is not that the baseline is right, or left, of the ball-target line. I think that the major difference is based on their selected impact plane - inclined angle of the clubshaft as it passes through the impact zone. Golfers, who have their baseline on the ball-target line, can have their clubshaft angle "somewhere" between the hand plane and the TSP - betwen the 3rd and 4th parallels. The elbow plane is intermediate in inclined plane angle between the hand plane and the TSP. In all these cases the golfer is tracing the baseline (which is always the ball-target line). Here are two examples. Example 1 - Phil Mickelson. I believe that Phil is tracing a baseline that is on the ball-target line. He "appears" to be using a CF release because his clubshaft is on the steeper TSP (between the 3rd and 4th parallels). Example 2 - Hunter Mahan. I believe that Hunter is tracing a baseline that is on the ball-target line. He "appears" to be using a CP release because his clubshaft is on the hand plane (between the 3rd and 4th parallels). Jeff.
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Post by iteachgolf on Mar 18, 2010 20:52:48 GMT -5
Jeff all three players are on the elbow plane at impact. His misses are pushes and hooks. When he fades it he aims left and hits little push fades. If shaft when parallel to the ground on both sides of the ball is aimed right in every swing I can find, especially so with a driver, how can his plane not be right of his stance line. What proof would you like. Video below shows baseline is pretty far right Attachments:
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 18, 2010 21:14:53 GMT -5
Dan, You wrote with respect to AK's swing-: "Well lets see when shaft is parallel to the ground on both sides of the ball it points right of his stance line. What more proof do I need. He is either off plane or his plane angle is right of his stance line. Your choice." I disagree, and I think that you are wrong. Here are capture images from an AK swing video. I have drawn a yellow dotted line to represent the ball-target line (presuming that he is aiming roughly down the middle of the fairway). His stance line is roughly parallel to the ball-target line. Note that his clubshaft is parallel to the ball-target line at the 3rd and 4th parallels. From my perspective, that proves that Anthony Kim traces a baseline that is on the ball-target line, and not right-of-the-ball-target line. During the club's passage from the 3rd parallel to the 4th parallel, I believe that AK's clubshaft is "on-plane" on the elbow plane, and that he traces a SPL (baseline = ball-target line = yellow dotted line). Jeff.
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Post by iteachgolf on Mar 18, 2010 21:29:17 GMT -5
In the photo on the right the clubhead is right of his hands and certainly pointing right of the yellow line. In the photo on the left the club is well below parallel to the ground Club in this photo is STILL slightly below parallel to the ground yet plainly not parallel to the yellow line you drew. I can't find a single driver swing of AK where the clubhead is on his hands/parallel to target line when parallel to the ground, but I can find a lot with the clubhead well behind the hands. Attachments:
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Post by gmbtempe on Mar 18, 2010 21:33:09 GMT -5
and below = plane to the right?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 18, 2010 21:45:41 GMT -5
Dan, You are now trying to argue about the exact point when the clubshaft is parallel to the ground - to try and prove your point that his baseline is aimed right of the ball-target line. Using that same approach, let's reconsider your images. In reply#9, you posted two images. In image 1, I think that AKs' clubshaft is slightly higher than parallel, and in image 2 it appears to be slightly lower than parallel. Those images will give a person the idea that his baseline is aimed right of the ball-target line. Here are alternative images - which I think are more accurate. I think that his clubshaft is more parallel to the ground in these images. I also think that his clubshaft is parallel to the yellow dotted line at the 3rd and 4th parallels (one cannot really see his clubshaft when it reaches the 4th parallel because it becomes obscured by his body). Now, why should a forum member believe that I have drawn the yellow dotted line correctly - as representing his baseline and the ball-target line? There are four ancillary reasons to support my position. 1) His stance line is parallel to the grass-cut lines on the tee box. 2) He appears to always chose a square stance = therefore his ball-target line would be expected to be parallel to those grass-cut lines on the tee box. 3) The yellow dotted line points down the middle of the fairway. AK apparently hits a straight drive and he would not aim to the right side of the fairway to hit a straight ball (rather than a deliberate draw). 4) Look at the initial ball flight. Note that the ball is going towards the middle of the fairway. If AK was really aiming his baseline to the right, in order to hit a draw that moves from right-to-left, then the initial ball flight should be towards the right side of the fairway. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 18, 2010 22:04:45 GMT -5
Dan - you wrote the following with respect to these AK images. "In the photo on the right the clubhead is right of his hands and certainly pointing right of the yellow line. In the photo on the left the club is well below parallel to the ground." I agree that the clubshaft is right of his hands in the second image. I decided to capture that image just before the club becomes parallel to the ground at the 4th parallel - because the clubshaft becomes totally obscured by his hands when it truly reaches the 4th parallel. We will have to disagree about image 1 - I think that his clubshaft is parallel to the ground. It only "appears" to be below parallel because of the high camera angle. Note the initial ball flight direction -it is going down down the middle. If he was really aiming his baseline to the right, in order to hit a draw, his initial ball flight would be towards the right side of the fairway. Here is ancillary/complementary proof. His clubshaft is parallel to the ground on this face-on view. Look at the position/orientation of his hands and right elbow relative to his waist and right thigh. I think that he is basically in the same position as the DTL view photo that I presented. Finally, look at the knuckles of his left hand - it is parallel to the ground in the face-on view and also on the DTL view. Jeff.
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