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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 23, 2010 12:05:13 GMT -5
VJ I personally do believe that establishing a braced/straightened left leg (with a firm left knee) in the late downswing helps a golfer pivot leftwards in the late downswing and followthrough. I think that it helps to deflect lower body forces, that are directed left-laterally towards the target, more around to the left, so that the pelvis rotates leftwards. See - www.youtube.com/watch?v=owamnCPutYoNote how Geoff Ogilvey's left buttocks rotates back-and-to-the right in the late downswing - as his left leg straightens. There was fashion in the 70s for golfers to buckle their knees towards the target in the downswing. I much prefer the modern day tendency for professional golfers to keep the left knee straighter in the downswing. Jeff.
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Post by nyclagster on Jan 23, 2010 18:13:19 GMT -5
It looks to me like the clubhead is either winning the race or your hands and club are arriving at impact simultaneously. I would prefer some latency between the 2. I would recommend some aim point drills. Look up Ben Doyle's facts and illusions mat. Ralph
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 23, 2010 20:49:20 GMT -5
It looks to me like the clubhead is either winning the race or your hands and club are arriving at impact simultaneously. I would prefer some latency between the 2. I would recommend some aim point drills. Look up Ben Doyle's facts and illusions mat. Ralph For me Ralph its a work in progress. I can lag it by doing some other patterns more but I don't play as well, this seems to be a happy median. Today was good, 82 in miserable conditions and no putter for the second straight round. I hit 11 fairways but the irons were off until the back 9. I was able to hit several solid fades the last 9 holes and save the round. One thing that did help was Jeff's recomendation to lesson the amount of rightwards spine tilt. I did that and my iron contact went way up.
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Post by nyclagster on Jan 23, 2010 21:15:21 GMT -5
Okay, I always say nobody knows your game better than you. BTW I jealous it was 32° today Ralph
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 24, 2010 15:25:58 GMT -5
Have a lesson this friday with a new instructor....still a AI TGM guy but with some darome base as well. Also some influence from Gary Edwin.
He said he already new me from my posts at Lynn's and Manzella's site. While we were talking he looked at my swing on Youtube. Said it looked good but that most of the problems are pivot related causing the throwaway, which I suspected as well as I mentioned in my reply to Ralph above.
120 bucks for 2 hours so that seems like a fair enough fee and will give me an idea if we connect. We talked for about an hour on the phone. Its funny how small the world really is because he knew or had worked with many of the people that had been helping me the past several months, Dana, Orr, Blake, Manzella.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jan 24, 2010 16:14:45 GMT -5
Good to hear. $60/hour is excellent deal. I think he's probaby going to work on finding ways to get your shoulders more open at impact. That closed shoulders look at impact was also causing me to get throwaway as well. I still have a long ways to go, but I've already seen noticeably less throwaway when I do video work with my swing.
3JACK
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Post by kevcarter on Jan 24, 2010 16:14:49 GMT -5
That should be great. I've been studying Gary Edwin lately and really enjoy his stuff. Could be a really good fit!
Kevin
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 24, 2010 18:19:00 GMT -5
Good to hear. $60/hour is excellent deal. I think he's probaby going to work on finding ways to get your shoulders more open at impact. That closed shoulders look at impact was also causing me to get throwaway as well. I still have a long ways to go, but I've already seen noticeably less throwaway when I do video work with my swing. 3JACK It was kind of funny because he was warning me a little that some of his stuff you had to have an open mind with as its not as he termed it "Leadbetter" type instruction....I told him no worries mate, I am a purveyor of radical thinking! We talked little bit about Mac's swing and school and he said it was absolutely the best pattern out there but also fairly complex, he wants to simplify that. He said something that really caught my attention and that swinging left is not just a function of the pivot but also tied to hands, and if they get out of position that swinging left as Manzella talks about could really get a player in trouble, the concept is right but its not as easy to execute as BM makes it sound.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jan 24, 2010 21:00:33 GMT -5
My understanding of Mac's swing is that he has different types of things he does depending on the club and the 'window' he wants to hit.
He has a low traj., medium traj., and high trajectory swings for a driver. Same goes with a long iron, mid-iron, wedge. In fact, from what I've heard the S&T is very, very similar to Mac's pattern for a low wedge (not saying that is good or bad or even true, just what I've heard).
I know SliceFixer works a lot on the pivot and having the hands go 'low and left', but he also ties it into a specific style of address position that he wants. I'm not exactly sure what Manzella does to get golfers swinging left. I'm not sure if it's just a pivot thing or if there's other factors involved.
3JACK
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 29, 2010 18:09:06 GMT -5
I had my lesson today with Denny Alberts, GSEB in Tuscon, Az today. I can honestly say it was the most interesting lesson of my life. The many things that I had thought were correct in the golf swing have been a bit turned up side down. Denny has a long history in TGM and over 200 hours with MOG, of which he has about 50 hours of Mac's teachings taped. The pattern he is teaching is a bit of a mix of darome stuff with some thoughts from Gary Edwin, and some pieces mixed in here and there from other teachers.
We taped my current swing and watched it, the were very good strikes and good swings. When we watched them I was actually kinda impressed with myself for making some good swings in front of the camera. Denny said the same thing I had heard from my last AI, you know the positions you want to be in at P3 or P6 for example but how you are getting there is really incorrect so there are many compensations.
Grip - advocated a strong grip, we started out very strong and worked weaker based on ball flight
Backswing - In my current backswing I take it back low, slow, and inside. My head moves back and then goes up seeking some balance, I do get it in a ok position at the top but the moving around is no good and it also leads to the club moving around within the grip. Change- backswing is more up and the left arm is relaxed and allowed to bend a little bit. The bend I am sure would be very controversial but the idea is to get into a powerful position, it allows you to go up more rather then around. This felt very weird like I was not really making a backswing. I also moved closer to the ball, I was to bent over and around before, more linear in the change.
Top - in my current swing the club gets to far behind my shoulders, too long, and the wrists are not hinging correctly. Change- as mentioned previously the hands are more in front of the body, backswing is a touch shorter, this will allow them to come down more without a lot of effort from the body.
Downswing - Currently there was a big move with the lower legs and hip, then a whole lotta axis tilt and the head moving down and staying way back, this left me out of right arm at P6 and then flipperooo!!. Change - this is the big change, I need to work the arms down, like chopping wood, no rolling of the wrists through the shot, take them up and then down. The hands should not move out as they currently did, but down and inside. I had a lot of trouble with this because I was not going down, I would go out and forward in my current swing but not down. The move for me is almost an over the top type move while chopping down, it was different. The left elbow is very close to the body and it is being pulled downwards and leftwards rather than forward and out as in my current swing. This is a key concept in the CP release but I struggled with it. Lots of practice needed.
Impact - old was decent alignments of a timed flip Change was with the hands in and down provided a more shaft lean and a proper divot. The head should not be moving down, should be more level into impact and should be starting to come up and around right after, think Annika Sorrenstam but not quite that extreme. I do think the head does have to move down a little and I am wondering since I had so much down if this was more a feel he was getting me to achieve? I will ask.
Finish - I dont want to say to much about the finish, the body is releasing to the left, and the pelvis is moving in a motion in a very much stack and tilt type move, the pelvis is releasing and the arms are recocking quicker but its not forced, its a product of doing the downswing correct, inside, downward and leftward. He showed me the finish and we worked on it but I had many more issues on the backswing and into impact.
One of the big things I could see was that in my old swing my right elbow at P6, club parallel on the downswing, my head was so far back that I had no choice but to dump it. On the changes you could see my left elbow much closer to my right thigh with some solid lag. From there its a CP release to the left. Now what was weird is I kept thinking the face was shut and the ball was going to go left, and it did not all that much. I wanted to ask is this similar to a hitting move per TGM but did not, I know I felt a heck of a lot of right arm in the chopping motion.
I do not have video, maybe he will put it up on youtube for me but what felt like a short backswing was actually complete in position and what felt like a slice type swing was actually still inside and on plane (turned shoulder plane to be precise).
This is not an overnight fix but it was nice to feel what real, repetitive compression is like rather than timed flipage.
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 29, 2010 22:06:25 GMT -5
I found this video on Youtube, its close to what we were working on, I would say I still had a slight shift but this is close. My hands are in more and working left with a release of the pelvis on the downswing.
I believe this is a student of a member here, Lake.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jan 29, 2010 23:14:38 GMT -5
Thanks for the post on your lesson, Greg.
Sounds similar to the things I'm learning. The head does move down IMO on the downswing and I'm sure 6* 3-D motion machines would say the same thing. I just think it's best to have a slight lowering of the head that is more or less nothing you can do about over having a major dip of the head ala Tiger.
3JACK
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Post by kevcarter on Jan 30, 2010 11:26:02 GMT -5
Thanks for the update on your lesson. Sounds like you guys will be a GREAT team!
Kevin
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 30, 2010 15:18:27 GMT -5
I remember a couple more things, he stressed hand speed, he said its just about impossible for my hands to outrace my body, he kept saying "late" on many of the swings. I always felt like power came from the body movement, and I am sure it does, but the hands dont get left behind playing catchup or you get out of position and lose your angles.
He also said that I have to get over dropping the head and leading with my hip to start the swing. He put a dowel next to my right foot vertical, he said there is your limit on your slide leftward...I could not do it, my hip was pushing it in the start of the downswing.
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 31, 2010 19:43:01 GMT -5
ok, got out to practice the new stuff. These is not going to be easy, when you have never had a CP release its not easy to get the motion, at least its not for me, but I think you will see some serious improvement on my lines and angles. Here is the sequence, and video, I can tell you the pulling of the left arm inside and left I could not come close to and I still would not trust hitting down until the last 20 balls, this was filmed in the middle of the session. I will add my thoughts at all the P's below the sequence and attach the videos at the end. I drew a line on the TSP on the down the line sequence and drew some standard stuff on the face on. P1 - The big change to note (original sequence on Page 1 of this thread) is that I am much closer to the ball and in a better posture. The grip has been strengthened considerably. The left foot is more flared then normal and is mostly to help me on the CP release, I would not have it that flared normally. P2 - While the club is still working out to start its more up right now. You can see in the face on that I am trying to maintain the radius of the swing, as Gary Edwin states the radius never increases from set up to finish, if it does your head has to sway and you are out of position. I find the TSP quickly as the club is on it. You can start to see probably the biggest change after the lesson, my head is no longer sliding off the ball as shown in the green circle. P3 - I am dead nuts on the TSP on the down the line view, face is shut, and it looks like I am maintaining my tush line much better. P4 - My hands are more in front of me but probably not as much as Denny would like. In the face on the head has come up ever so slightly but I have a rightward spine. Left elbow is ever so slightly bent but overall good structure, face is dead shut though but this is something I was told to do, work back from a shut face, in a CP release you dont want rolling of the hands for an open face at any point. P5 - On the DTL view I am right on the TSP coming down. On the face view that lead hip is starting to pop forward which is going to hinder the turn left and CP release but its not horrid and better than it was. P6 - This is another big change in the face on my hands were well behind my body previously, I was playing catch up the whole way and ready to flip it to catch up. The hands now are on the right thigh and I have maintained the angles. The shoulder is starting to dip to much but thats the hip and not hitting down enough on the ball, its better though. On the DTL I put a white circle on the clubhead , right on the TSP! The hands though are just starting to pop out due to the hip slide, I need to get this rotation down better. P7 - On the DTL the club came right down the TSP and into impact, the forearm to clubhead relationship is no longer below the plane line! In the face on the club has more shaft lean but its not crazy and I see little to no leakage. I don't have anything close to the correct pelvis release Denny is looking for, but thats going to take some work. P8 - On the DTL view I added another circle, looks pretty on plane to me? I am not working the left arm in and left at all like I am supposed to on the CP release, its easier to do without the club, the club and ball screw things up in my head ) : P9 - looks pretty good finish is more up that previously as I think the baseline was much better in the sequence. Overall some real good stuff, both of these shots were solid hits, the face on was straight and the DTL was pulled a little. Here is the videos. Rome was not built in a day but after one lesson I see some good things.
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