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Post by playa on Jan 26, 2013 8:23:48 GMT -5
Why so condescending and confrontational? What are the two mutually exclusive markets they each appeal to exactly? Both instructors teach average golfers, correct? BMan also teaches tour pros... does KM? Other han that I don't see a difference. ALL I see is you being an absolute prick to anyone that has a differing view. ----------------- IN ALL SINCERITY--------- Kelvin... Where are you? Why do you continue to allow Jeffy to speak in your name? As a third party observer, with no horse in the race (despite what Jeffy might twist things to be), your credibility is dropping... and has been since Jeffy started his site. If I were new to the scene and wanted info on you I'd find nothing but hate and verbal abuse... ALL IN YOUR NAME!!!! There is literally NOTHING on that site that would make a golfer WANT to work with you. Why would a golfer want to be brought into that world? I have to assume that your silence on the matter means you APPROVE of the way Jeffy supports you. Is that the case? Silly argument. Because to you KM is not easily available or that Jeffy does this and that, so therefore Bman by default is your guy. Sounds just about right, but not quite. Given the mountains of evidence exposing Bman for what he is, all by way of his own words and deeds, how dare you even bring him up like that and compare with KM? The other thread has more than 10,000 views and not a single word was spoken on Bman forum denying even one single thing brought up. Not a single word. Not one single thing. Why? Because they know what we have written are true. ps. Why brush away what some posters here just said that KM did respond to others' inquiries, even promptly? Why? Because you have certain prejudice against him, that is why.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jan 26, 2013 8:33:19 GMT -5
Cloran - I think one can say the same about Manzella and much of his crew. I should know because I hear it all of the time from other golf pros (usually involved in instruction) and scientific researchers who claim he loses credibility thru his followers.
I understand that it's part of the game. While I'm disappointed to read Kevin Shields' short-sighted view of my work in statistics (it's obvious he hasn't read any of it), I understand his viewpoint is skewed because of the beef Manzella and I have had.
But, I also understand that Shields' game and livelihood has been resurrected by Brian, going from a golfer who had full swing yips to going back to playing his best golf ever and qualifying for big professional events. If that had happened to me, I would also be quite fanatical in sticking up for the instructor's work.
Golf instruction lends way to fanatical behavior from students because that's how much the game means to people. I see it all of the time. I see it in all circles at the PGA Show EVERY year. I saw it last year when the late Jim Flick went after S&T in his presentation with Bob Toski at Demo Day. Somebody like Ken Duke (a student of Toski's) will vociferously defend his points against all teaching and even against Manzella for 'using computers.'
So while part of me doesn't like it, I've come to accept that it is part of the industry whether we like it or not.
3JACK
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Post by playa on Jan 26, 2013 8:39:42 GMT -5
Richie, what I take away from Shileds' quick write up is pretty much what you said. It is limited to one player's view when comparing with your work which is based on, above all, a generalized, objective assessment with known parameters. His is more like an anti-stat rant, calling out exceptions to disprove the rules based on stats.
He knew you don't play golf at his level, therefore, that is something he can always use against you. A strong sales pitch, but after a while it is stale because it is very narrow and based totally on subjectivity. His ace in the cards is that you will never understand because you don't play at his level. But, it sounds like I can safely assume that many who play at a level higher than him, aka real PGA pros, employ your service for their livelihood. Case closed. And I don't believe you will sit tight with whatever you have and do not try to improve and innovate to make your product more useful.
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Post by cloran on Jan 26, 2013 8:54:05 GMT -5
Why so condescending and confrontational? What are the two mutually exclusive markets they each appeal to exactly? Both instructors teach average golfers, correct? BMan also teaches tour pros... does KM? Other han that I don't see a difference. ALL I see is you being an absolute prick to anyone that has a differing view. ----------------- IN ALL SINCERITY--------- Kelvin... Where are you? Why do you continue to allow Jeffy to speak in your name? As a third party observer, with no horse in the race (despite what Jeffy might twist things to be), your credibility is dropping... and has been since Jeffy started his site. If I were new to the scene and wanted info on you I'd find nothing but hate and verbal abuse... ALL IN YOUR NAME!!!! There is literally NOTHING on that site that would make a golfer WANT to work with you. Why would a golfer want to be brought into that world? I have to assume that your silence on the matter means you APPROVE of the way Jeffy supports you. Is that the case? Silly argument. Because to you KM is not easily available or that Jeffy does this and that, so therefore Bman by default is your guy. Sounds just about right, but not quite. Given the mountains of evidence exposing Bman for what he is, all by way of his own words and deeds, how dare you even bring him up like that and compare with KM? The other thread has more than 10,000 views and not a single word was spoken on Bman forum denying even one single thing brought up. Not a single word. Not one single thing. Why? Because they know what we have written are true. ps. Why brush away what some posters here just said that KM did respond to others' inquiries, even promptly? Why? Because you have certain prejudice against him, that is why. First, I don't have "a guy." Second, KM could make himself available. Third... how about this... Get ready... KM has emailed ME TOO! That's not what I was referring to, and the difference between the response vids BM makes for all to see and a PM is rather large. Wouldn't you agree? Fourth... Exactly! Jeffy's site is set up to beat down BM and exhalt KM. I'm sure Kelvin is a decent guy and a good instructor... but why let someone make you look so bad? Just read the posts at Jeffy's site. So much hate... This is in stark contrast to BM in that he is active on the site and states his case personally.
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Post by playa on Jan 26, 2013 9:13:42 GMT -5
So basically, you cannot possibly understand how socially and professionally KM conducts himself and therefore, in a way, you are using Bman as a role model for KM, more or less.
Don't you think the contrast is indeed too stark?
Why can't a person live a life the way he or she finds the most comfortable regardless what others have to say?
Since you have PMed with him, why don't you ask him yourself, really?
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Post by cloran on Jan 26, 2013 9:14:43 GMT -5
Cloran - I think one can say the same about Manzella and much of his crew. I should know because I hear it all of the time from other golf pros (usually involved in instruction) and scientific researchers who claim he loses credibility thru his followers. I understand that it's part of the game. While I'm disappointed to read Kevin Shields' short-sighted view of my work in statistics (it's obvious he hasn't read any of it), I understand his viewpoint is skewed because of the beef Manzella and I have had. But, I also understand that Shields' game and livelihood has been resurrected by Brian, going from a golfer who had full swing yips to going back to playing his best golf ever and qualifying for big professional events. If that had happened to me, I would also be quite fanatical in sticking up for the instructor's work. Golf instruction lends way to fanatical behavior from students because that's how much the game means to people. I see it all of the time. I see it in all circles at the PGA Show EVERY year. I saw it last year when the late Jim Flick went after S&T in his presentation with Bob Toski at Demo Day. Somebody like Ken Duke (a student of Toski's) will vociferously defend his points against all teaching and even against Manzella for 'using computers.' So while part of me doesn't like it, I've come to accept that it is part of the industry whether we like it or not. 3JACK I agree. A SIMILAR case can certainly be made for BM... Does that make it right? KM does nothing but sit back and watch as someone else brings him down. It's sad. I don't feel the same for BM because at least he's there to interject.
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Post by cloran on Jan 26, 2013 9:20:21 GMT -5
So basically, you cannot possibly understand how socially and professionally KM conducts himself and therefore, in a way, you are using Bman as a role model for KM, more or less. Don't you think the contrast is indeed to stark? Why can't a person live a life the way he or she finds the most comfortable regardless what others have to say? Not even close. I'm not using BM as a social barometer. Is Kelvin socially awkward? That's a serious question btw... no underlying connotations. If he is then I would certainly understand his position much better. You don't see the difference between living your life "regardless what others have to say" and letting someone speak for you? Surely you do, right?
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Post by teeace on Jan 26, 2013 9:25:45 GMT -5
I agree. A SIMILAR case can certainly be made for BM... Does that make it right? KM does nothing but sit back and watch as someone else brings him down. It's sad. I don't feel the same for BM because at least he's there to interject. I can't understand how Kelvin could be responsible about what Jeffy is doing. I don't like everything Jeffy is doing and I have made lot of critic about that during the last year, but on his side I have to say he's very honest and seeking the truth. But I haven't seen any forum bashing Kelvin about his behave, instead of BMan maybe, but many many people seem to have lot against Manzella. And I really understand why.
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Post by playa on Jan 26, 2013 9:29:28 GMT -5
So basically, you cannot possibly understand how socially and professionally KM conducts himself and therefore, in a way, you are using Bman as a role model for KM, more or less. Don't you think the contrast is indeed to stark? Why can't a person live a life the way he or she finds the most comfortable regardless what others have to say? Not even close. I'm not using BM as a social barometer. Is Kelvin socially awkward? That's a serious question btw... no underlying connotations. If he is then I would certainly understand his position much better. You don't see the difference between living your life "regardless what others have to say" and letting someone speak for you? Surely you do, right? In fact, I find Bman himself very socially awkward to watch since you brought that up. He is inarticulate: things that take 10 seconds to clearly say usually take him 10 mins. I have no idea what KM is like and I am not going to speculate. Since he apparently responds to inquiries privately and promptly and he does not do videos like Bman does, I accept that as his style. Let's be honest for a second. Bman does his videos mostly for one purpose: damage control, so that he has another chance to put spins on things that he screwed up previously. I watch his videos with that understanding (so that I can pick on him even more). It is not difficult to see that Bman's videos actually do him more harm. It is a bad idea when Bman confabulates freely.
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Post by playa on Jan 26, 2013 9:54:21 GMT -5
Then there is the question on if K and J had anything to do with TM studying their machines further.
It comes down to Richie's first hand experience versus clowns on Bman land denying with 100% certainty.
Just another on going example on how devious, misleading, vengeful people can be.
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Post by cloran on Jan 26, 2013 10:03:38 GMT -5
Then there is the question on if K and J had anything to do with TM studying their machines further. It comes down to Richie's first hand experience versus clowns on Bman land denying with 100% certainty. Just another on going example on how devious, misleading, vengeful people can be. You are speaking about BM AND Jeffy... Correct? No one is without sin, or is Jeffy fresh as a daisy here? Maybe you should try being more open minded? Watching a video of BMs just to find things to pick apart is a bit childish, no? Afterall, BM said he likes a lot of what Kelvin teaches. When was that complement returned?
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Post by cloran on Jan 26, 2013 10:05:45 GMT -5
I agree. A SIMILAR case can certainly be made for BM... Does that make it right? KM does nothing but sit back and watch as someone else brings him down. It's sad. I don't feel the same for BM because at least he's there to interject. I can't understand how Kelvin could be responsible about what Jeffy is doing. I don't like everything Jeffy is doing and I have made lot of critic about that during the last year, but on his side I have to say he's very honest and seeking the truth. But I haven't seen any forum bashing Kelvin about his behave, instead of BMan maybe, but many many people seem to have lot against Manzella. And I really understand why. Simple, KM says to Jeffy: "Please stop being confrontational in my name. I want no part of it." *POOF* Jeffy stops.
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Post by playa on Jan 26, 2013 10:11:25 GMT -5
Then there is the question on if K and J had anything to do with TM studying their machines further. It comes down to Richie's first hand experience versus clowns on Bman land denying with 100% certainty. Just another on going example on how devious, misleading, vengeful people can be. You are speaking about BM AND Jeffy... Correct? No one is without sin, or is Jeffy fresh as a daisy here? Maybe you should try being more open minded? Watching a video ofBMs just to find things to pickmapart is a bit childish, no? Afterall, BM said he likes a lot of what Kelvin teaches. When was that complement returned? Other than your picking on KM for not doing more videos, you have nothing substantial to say against KM. Most would consider that a huge compliment to KM. I also consider a KM very successful in his area of interest. I have had very brutal exchanges with Jeffy here. But when he makes good points, I also show my acknowledgment. Bman is extremely different from the above 2. His blanket disrespect to other teachers is the seed that I have viewed him in very very dim light. The more he tries to bash others to show off his wannabe ways, the more I view him as a dimwit. Is that not clear enough just by reading my posts here???
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Post by playa on Jan 26, 2013 10:14:46 GMT -5
I can't understand how Kelvin could be responsible about what Jeffy is doing. I don't like everything Jeffy is doing and I have made lot of critic about that during the last year, but on his side I have to say he's very honest and seeking the truth. But I haven't seen any forum bashing Kelvin about his behave, instead of BMan maybe, but many many people seem to have lot against Manzella. And I really understand why. Simple, KM says to Jeffy: "Please stop being confrontational in my name. I want no part of it." *POOF* Jeffy stops. You are speculating what Jeffy may do or may not do. What do you think I will do if Bman relates to me to stop being confrontational against him and he wants no part of it? Also, because of the degree of naivety, I really don't know how to respond to your insistence that KM pays compliment back to Bman since Bman has been documented to put KM's work in highest regard. What if KM does not think much of Bman and do you want KM to do a video on that? It's a video you probably won't want to see, right?
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Post by cloran on Jan 26, 2013 10:33:36 GMT -5
You are speaking about BM AND Jeffy... Correct? No one is without sin, or is Jeffy fresh as a daisy here? Maybe you should try being more open minded? Watching a video ofBMs just to find things to pickmapart is a bit childish, no? Afterall, BM said he likes a lot of what Kelvin teaches. When was that complement returned? Other than your picking on KM for not doing more videos, you have nothing substantial to say against KM. Most would consider that a huge compliment to KM. I also consider a KM very successful in his area of interest. I have had very brutal exchanges with Jeffy here. But when he makes good points, I also show my acknowledgment. Bman is extremely different from the above 2. His blanket disrespect to other teachers is the seed that I have viewed him in very very dim light. The more he tries to bash others to show off his wannabe ways, the more I view him as a dimwit. Is that not clear enough just by reading my posts here??? I have nothing bad to say about KM, so why would I?
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