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Post by cwdlaw223 on Aug 13, 2013 15:59:30 GMT -5
Tee - The green line in this lead wrist graph is what counts in this post and deals with lead wrist flexion/extension in degrees. The black horizontal line = neutral (no flexion/extension). Below the horizontal black line = lead wrist extension (cupped). Above the horitzontal black line = lead wrist flexed (bowed). BTW - I didn't digitize this player and there could always be a problem with poor digitization. Post some of your lead wrist graphs there Tee! I know you have them and you could bring some precision to this issue on what truly is a "flipper." What is a roller is a whole differnt topic. We don't got direct numbers of that as I found it too complicated to measure in 3D. I have to read it from paths, hand /CH relation and some other positions and would be too difficult to explain how to see what. What makes me wonder is that there doesn't seem to be any reaction for impact as there certainly should be. I guess that is the old filtering problem as I've told before. Impact gives totally different impulse to the wrist for flippers and non flippers and amount of flexion should change sharply at impact. Tee - So your device doesn't provide numerical lead/trail wrist data? |
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Post by teeace on Aug 13, 2013 23:38:33 GMT -5
We don't got direct numbers of that as I found it too complicated to measure in 3D. I have to read it from paths, hand /CH relation and some other positions and would be too difficult to explain how to see what. What makes me wonder is that there doesn't seem to be any reaction for impact as there certainly should be. I guess that is the old filtering problem as I've told before. Impact gives totally different impulse to the wrist for flippers and non flippers and amount of flexion should change sharply at impact. Tee - So your device doesn't provide numerical lead/trail wrist data? No, but it doesn't mean I can't see difference between flipper, roller or bower. And even more important, I understand and see why they do.. or actually react like that. Flipping is a reaction, not action, Rolling is half half as well is bowing. |
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Post by teeace on Aug 14, 2013 2:00:43 GMT -5
We don't got direct numbers of that as I found it too complicated to measure in 3D. I have to read it from paths, hand /CH relation and some other positions and would be too difficult to explain how to see what. What makes me wonder is that there doesn't seem to be any reaction for impact as there certainly should be. I guess that is the old filtering problem as I've told before. Impact gives totally different impulse to the wrist for flippers and non flippers and amount of flexion should change sharply at impact. How do you digitze the body on your system (if at all)? Yes we do and it's very detailed from the relevant points and based on silhouettes of 8 different angle cameras. How about those graphs you posted. Where are exactly those sensors located? |
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Aug 14, 2013 7:53:59 GMT -5
12 sensors, digitized, all over and very, very detailed!
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Post by teeace on Aug 14, 2013 7:59:29 GMT -5
12 sensors, digitized, all over and very, very detailed! 12 sensors at the arm only??? |
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Aug 14, 2013 9:30:27 GMT -5
All over.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Aug 14, 2013 9:47:12 GMT -5
Tee - So your device doesn't provide numerical lead/trail wrist data? No, but it doesn't mean I can't see difference between flipper, roller or bower. And even more important, I understand and see why they do.. or actually react like that. Flipping is a reaction, not action, Rolling is half half as well is bowing. Why would anyone chose your device over AMM when they have this crucial data and your device doesn't? |
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Post by teeace on Aug 15, 2013 0:34:53 GMT -5
No, but it doesn't mean I can't see difference between flipper, roller or bower. And even more important, I understand and see why they do.. or actually react like that. Flipping is a reaction, not action, Rolling is half half as well is bowing. Why would anyone chose your device over AMM when they have this crucial data and your device doesn't? Because we got much more relevant data and that can also be seen. CW, in reality.. and honestly... You don't understand 1% of that what I understand and know about measuring and 3D. For example to get right data of PF / DF you would need about 4 sensors at least in forearm and wrist. And yes... we got 35 points of body in our measuring, so it's bit more than 12. But you didn't answer to my question how you know they are very accurate? Are we once again in situation that you believe what you want to believe? |
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Post by teeace on Aug 15, 2013 0:36:18 GMT -5
How the heck they think to get natural swing measured with tons of cables around the body?  |
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Aug 15, 2013 6:58:01 GMT -5
Tapio -
Call up Phil Cheatem if you want to know more about his system. I know that plenty of PGA Tour pros use AMM and presume not one PGA Tour player has used your system. That speaks volumes. Plenty of people think they build a better mouse trap but that doesn't mean squat unless the new mouse trap is available for use. Good luck getting your machine to market!
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Post by teeace on Aug 15, 2013 7:22:24 GMT -5
Tapio - Call up Phil Cheatem if you want to know more about his system. I know that plenty of PGA Tour pros use AMM and presume not one PGA Tour player has used your system. That speaks volumes. Plenty of people think they build a better mouse trap but that doesn't mean squat unless the new mouse trap is available for use. Good luck getting your machine to market! The real problem is that you talk out loud about things you know about nothing. And you teach those things to people who has been working with that area almost 10 years now. You really should ask and listen instead of telling about those. And I know many tour players who hate those things with cables as they can't swing normally with that. And if our system would be available for sure they would use it... as they will when we start in Spain. They are already waiting to get that information. I know how they work, and I know what is missing and what is good in every system. My questions were mainly to show that you don't know and by that you can't answer those. |
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Aug 15, 2013 7:38:20 GMT -5
I knew what you were trying to do and it was obvious.
You should get someone to help you with the business aspect of these systems since you're getting lapped by AMM and Rob Neal's new system. Intelligence isn't enough!!!! I also think you're confused about what I talk about since the technical information you seek shouldn't be addressed to me but your competitors.
I hope your system works because I like technology. I'm disappointed that your system doesn't have such crucial data as lead/trail wrist but maybe you'll have other info that makes up for this issue. Good luck!
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Post by jeffy on Aug 15, 2013 12:01:53 GMT -5
I knew what you were trying to do and it was obvious. You should get someone to help you with the business aspect of these systems since you're getting lapped by AMM and Rob Neal's new system. Intelligence isn't enough!!!! I also think you're confused about what I talk about since the technical information you seek shouldn't be addressed to me but your competitors. I hope your system works because I like technology. I'm disappointed that your system doesn't have such crucial data as lead/trail wrist but maybe you'll have other info that makes up for this issue. Good luck! No, the AMM/Rob Neal 3D systems are being lapped by multi-camera systems, which is the market 4dswing competes in. Why limit yourself to 12 sensors when the camera-based systems allow you to track any point on the body? And Trackman is being lapped by Foresight HMT, a stereoscopic camera system, for clubhead data. The OEMs only use Trackman for ball data. |
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Aug 15, 2013 12:42:47 GMT -5
Must be a result of the final findings from the research a thon!!!
Wrong Jeffy! Tapio's system can't provide lead/trail wrist data as he admitted.
12 sensors doesn't mean 12 graphs! Keep trying Jeffy! I suspect you haven't been on AMM. Why even bother with multiple cameras?
I might end up buying that unit if the price point is less than $5,000. Price counts and I want impact data.
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Post by jeffy on Aug 15, 2013 13:07:04 GMT -5
Believe what you want, but Penn State chucked AMM for Qualisys and Mackenzie suggested we buy a six-camera system (NOT an AMM) instead of another Phantom. Sure, "teaching pros" might still buy them to "fill the lesson book", but researchers aren't.
I don't ignore the spin "issue", there isn't one. But you are right, there is an "explanation". Ready, fire, aim!!!
Price point is around $5 or $6k, I believe for the HMT unit, but it doesn't give ball data; that's the GC2 unit, which is another $20k or so. Mackenzie is trying to raise a grant to buy a complete system; doesn't trust Trackman for impact data.
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