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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 30, 2010 20:22:11 GMT -5
antti I personally do not believe in the kinetic transfer of momentum concept (kinetic link theory). However, I do believe in "correct" kinetic sequencing in a left arm swinger's action where the lower body moves first followed by a rotation of the upper body. It is the rotation of the upper body that catapults the left arm forward towards impact (causes the release of PA#4) and thereby powers the swing. During the early downswing, there are slight variations in the rate of clubshaft shallowing due to small differences in the speed of active right arm adduction (relative to the speed of upper torso rotation) per unit time. For example, Sergio Garcia has more right arm adduction per unit time than Tiger Woods (relative to the speed of upper torso rotation) and therefore he shallows his clubshaft sooner in his early downswing. Sergio Garcia's early downswing Tiger Woods early downswing However, these variations do not affect the basic kinetic sequence of a left arm swinger, who routinely starts the downswing with a pelvic rotation movement that is followed shortly thereafter by an upper torso (shoulder) rotation. Here is a graph showing the "correct" kinetic sequence in a left arm swinger. Rv = Angular velocity. Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 30, 2010 20:34:04 GMT -5
I know Sergio is a great ball striker and accurate with the driver but given how stuck that clubhead looks to me behind him its no wonder why its a swing that has not held up under pressure. The hand speed he has must be off the charts.
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Post by pavaveda on Jan 31, 2010 10:55:58 GMT -5
I will offer you my biased opinion. I would want no other kind. Good to hear. So, it looks like you're offering two options: 1) improve the downswing pivot (preferred), or 2) adduct the right upper arm and get a pitch elbow. Correct? Now, isn't a pitch elbow a swinger move? I haven't done a full TGM analysis of my swing yet, but I thought I was going to end up being more of a hitter. Am I way off in thinking this? And if I just concentrate on improving the pivot, then I can stick with a hitting pattern? I don't want to have to think about improving too many things. Especially, if it's unnecessary.
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Post by kevcarter on Jan 31, 2010 11:07:58 GMT -5
pavaveda,
IMHO, don't disgard any component option until you have tried it. Pitch elbow is more geared towards swingers, but it is not mandatory that it not be used for a hitter. Don't be afraid to experiment, that's what it's all about! If you discover it doesn't fit your pattern, you may find you have learned something else in the process... I believe LagPressure teaches his version of hitting with pitch elbow...
Kevin
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 31, 2010 13:52:21 GMT -5
Pavaveda
I didn't know that you want to be a TGM hitter.
My proferred advice was tailored for a golfer who wants to be a left arm swinger.
The reason why I identified you as a swinger, rather than a TGM hitter, is the fact that i) you employ a takeaway swivel action and the fact that ii) you get your clubshaft to parallel at the end-backswing with your right elbow below the hands, and iii) you employ a release swivel action followed by a horizontal hinging action. A TGM hitter doesn't employ a takeaway swivel action and stops the backswing at the top-of-the-backswing (when the hands are opposite the right shoulder) by loading the right elbow (which is angled behind the hands). In your swing video, you do not load the right elbow - you load your left arm flying wedge and your right forearm flying wedge simply supports your left arm flying wedge at the end-backswing position.
A TGM hitter avoids an OTT move by ensuring that the right shoulder moves assertively downplane in the early downswing. That downplane movement of the right shoulder can occur with an i) active pivot action where one first slides the pelvis left-laterally towards the target or with a ii) reactive pivot action where the right shoulder's active downplane thrust motion causes the pelvis to secondarily react (Gary Edwin and Tom Tomasello teaching methodology).
Jeff.
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antti
Beat up Radials
Posts: 9
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Post by antti on Jan 31, 2010 17:48:12 GMT -5
antti I personally do not believe in the kinetic transfer of momentum concept (kinetic link theory). Here is a graph showing the "correct" kinetic sequence in a left arm swinger. Rv = Angular velocity. Jeff. Thanks Jeff for the answer. So, if there really is no transfer of momentum, can we then say that the slowing down of the pelvis and the shoulders in the downswing has no purpose? That it happens because the player can't (because of physical limitations) keep the rotational speed up thru impact? Or is there another purpose for the deceleration? In the graph you provided one segment slows down as the next accelerates. I would love to see actual graphs for players such as McIlroy. To my eye, his swing would give very different graphs. I see his hip (pelvis) accelerating thru impact into the follow thru before coming to a abrupt and momentary stop. Am I seeing something that's not happening? Here again is the Rory swing I'm looking at www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR9mY8kYCwc&feature=related
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 31, 2010 19:00:23 GMT -5
If you consider a golfer, like Rory McIlroy, he rotates his pelvis about 45 degrees in the backswing, Then he rotates it 135 degrees in the downswing/followthrough so that it faces the target at the finish. However, the speed of rotation is faster during the first 45 degrees of that 135 degree rotation than the last 90 degrees. The reason relates to two factors - i) the muscles causing the pelvic rotation are maximally stretched at the start of the downswing and become progressively more contracted during the downswing and ii) the left leg becomes increasingly braced/straightened in the later phase of the downswing and it impedes the easy rotation of the pelvis. This has been measured in a laboratory setting. Here is table of laboratory results of angular velocity of the pelvis and upper torso at different time points in the downswing - look at lines 14 and 19 for rotational/angular velocity. The study was done on three groups of golfers - depending on their ball speed velocity. The HBV group are obviously better golfers than the LBV group and they have higher pelvis/torso rotational speeds. Note that pelvis/upper torso velocity is maximum at the end of the early downswing (when the lead arm is parallel to the ground) and slows down afterwards. I believe that the natural slowing of the torso's rotation is advantageous because it allows one to more efficiently catapult the left arm down-and-forwards into impact (more efficiently release PA#4). Jeff.
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Post by pavaveda on Feb 1, 2010 14:46:37 GMT -5
Pavaveda I didn't know that you want to be a TGM hitter. My proferred advice was tailored for a golfer who wants to be a left arm swinger. The reason why I identified you as a swinger, rather than a TGM hitter, is the fact that i) you employ a takeaway swivel action and the fact that ii) you get your clubshaft to parallel at the end-backswing with your right elbow below the hands, and iii) you employ a release swivel action followed by a horizontal hinging action. A TGM hitter doesn't employ a takeaway swivel action and stops the backswing at the top-of-the-backswing (when the hands are opposite the right shoulder) by loading the right elbow (which is angled behind the hands). In your swing video, you do not load the right elbow - you load your left arm flying wedge and your right forearm flying wedge simply supports your left arm flying wedge at the end-backswing position. A TGM hitter avoids an OTT move by ensuring that the right shoulder moves assertively downplane in the early downswing. That downplane movement of the right shoulder can occur with an i) active pivot action where one first slides the pelvis left-laterally towards the target or with a ii) reactive pivot action where the right shoulder's active downplane thrust motion causes the pelvis to secondarily react (Gary Edwin and Tom Tomasello teaching methodology). Jeff. Jeff, it wasn't so much that I want to be a TGM Hitter, but more that after seeing some video of my swing a couple of months ago, and I noticed that I was (or at least I thought I noticed that I was) angle hinging. Maybe one or two other components as well that I had noticed made me think that I was hitting. I'm going to go through my more recent video and try to do a TGM style analysis on my swing. I'll let you guys review it and tell me where I'm off. Not sure if that sounds fun to anyone else but me.
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Post by pavaveda on Feb 2, 2010 0:06:39 GMT -5
I've been wanting to do this since I read the book. I'm sure I'm probably not seeing everything that I should be, but I've learned a couple things just doing this. Pavaveda TGM Self-Analysis 2/1/10 No./Component/Des./Variations/Comments 1. Grip–Basic - D - Interlocking 2. Grip–Type - B - Strong Single Action - not positive 3. Stroke–Basic - A - Punch 4. Stroke–Variation - C-2 - Triple Barrel (1/2/4) - not sure. I don’t see #3 5. Plane Line -A - Square-Square 6. Plane Angle–Basic - B - Turned Shoulder 7. Plane Angle–Variation - B - Single Shift - 2nd video has more double shift 8. Fix - A - Standard 9. Address - A - Standard 10. Hinge Action - D - Dual Horizontal 11. Pressure Point Combination - C-4 - Triple (2/3/4) 12. Pivot - A - Standard 13. Shoulder Turn - C - Rotated 14. Hip Turn - A - Standard - Bordering on C (Shiftless) oftentimes 15. Hip Action - B - Delayed 16. Knee Action - A - Standard 17. Foot Action - C - Flat Left 18. Wrist Action - A - Standard 19. Lag Loading - C - Drag Loading 20. Trigger Type - C - Shoulder Turn Throw 21. Power Package Assembly Point - D - Downstroke Top 22. Power Package Loading Action - A - Full-Sweep 23. Power Package Delivery Path - E - Circle 24. Power Package Release - D - Non-Automatic Snap Release Attachments:
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 2, 2010 0:26:09 GMT -5
Pavaveda
I am curious. How do you identify whether a golfer is using, or not using, PA#3?
Jeff.
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Post by pavaveda on Feb 2, 2010 0:44:41 GMT -5
Jeff, While going through the components, I was only referencing chapter 10, and 10-4 simply says that PA#3 is the left wrist. I looked at some video of my swing from face-on and DTL, and didn't see much change or movement in my left wrist through impact, so I didn't want to say that I was using it if I didn't see it.
Without going to the book, I'm going to guess that PA#3 is rolling of the turned wrist. It took me a second, but I couldn't think of a golf swing that didn't do this; then I realized that putting is a good example of a stroke that doesn't use PA#3. That is, if it is what I think it is. If it is the rolling of the turned left wrist (I might have rolling and turned mixed up), then it would definitely be a source of power.
Thanks for making me think, Jeff.
Russ
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Post by kevcarter on Feb 2, 2010 9:28:03 GMT -5
Jeff, ... Thanks for making me think, Jeff.Russ Jeff will do that. It used to scare me, now I know that after I feel stupid, I learn, a lot! Kevin
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 2, 2010 11:43:52 GMT -5
Russ You are correct - release of PA#3 is the rolling of the turned left wrist. Homer Kelley incorrectly labeled this as a wrist motion. It is actually a left forearm supinatory motion where the left wrist and left hand roll-over to the same degree, and there is no independent/active motion within the left wrist joint. The left forearm supinatory motion involves the counterclockwise rolling of the radius bone around the longitudinal axis of the ulna bone. You can see that happening by watching two factors in a slow-motion swing video - i) look to see if the left forearm radial ridge (just above the wrist) rolls-over near impact and ii) look at the back of the left hand to see if it rolls over just before impact. Here is an example of a PA#3 release - Tiger Woods. In image 1, the red arrow is pointing at the radial border of his left forearm and the yellow arrow is pointing at the back of his left hand. Image 2 shows how they roll counterclockwise into impact. Here is an example of a golfer (left arm swinger) who doesn't use a PA#3 release - Jamie Sadlowski. Jeff.
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Post by kevcarter on Feb 2, 2010 12:02:53 GMT -5
WOW, Jamie must be the perfect example of why a swinger doesn't need four barrels to be long? Do you see him as 2 and 4 only, or is he using a little 1 through impact?
Kevin
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 2, 2010 12:31:12 GMT -5
Kevin,
I think that Jamie is a double barrel left arm swinger (4:2 sequence).
He swings far too fast to actively employ PA#1, which a left arm swinger shouldn't really do because it would interfere with the centrifugal-induced release of PA#2. Note how bent his right elbow remains in the late downswing and how far his right elbow is in its pitch location in front of the right hip. That's not a position for a powerful right arm straightening action. A TGM hitter, who actively uses PA#1, usually has the right elbow in a punch location behind the right hip area.
Jeff.
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